Abandoned car on private property.
Discussion
Freddy88FM said:
Hi all,
Update as promised. My Mum has been texted constantly over the bank holiday by the guy. Amusingly he told my Mum it was unacceptable for her not to reply since his last message 24 hours earlier. It took him 5 weeks and the disappearance of his car to contact us!
The tenant pays £125 per month for the space. The gentleman with the Golf cost them nearly £250.
Anyway, I'm taking over from here and will speak with the guy today. I don't expect him to be quite so abusive to a male. I spoke with the scrap dealer. They have not stripped the car yet. It's a P reg Golf GTi Mk3 in "dubious condition" with around 150k miles. Autotrader suggests it's worth around £300-400 if it's in decent condition.
I'm going to keep it amicable from my side and ask him to carefully explain his situation. I want to understand why the flat tire stopped him from moving the car or contacting us. The irony is my Mum is overly hospitable and would probably have organised someone to help him get it to Kwik-Fit I expect. I want to understand why he presumably did not have a jack or a spare. Once I'm satisfied here I'd like to understand why the car was untaxed and for a long period before it turned up in the space. When was he planning to tax it? What was his reasoning.
It will be fairly straightforward to ascertain if he is lying. And if so, he will get no help from my side. If he tells the truth, and I will give him ample chance. Then I will help him out.
So we will see.
Really interested to see how this goes. The guy doesn't have a leg to stand on!Update as promised. My Mum has been texted constantly over the bank holiday by the guy. Amusingly he told my Mum it was unacceptable for her not to reply since his last message 24 hours earlier. It took him 5 weeks and the disappearance of his car to contact us!
The tenant pays £125 per month for the space. The gentleman with the Golf cost them nearly £250.
Anyway, I'm taking over from here and will speak with the guy today. I don't expect him to be quite so abusive to a male. I spoke with the scrap dealer. They have not stripped the car yet. It's a P reg Golf GTi Mk3 in "dubious condition" with around 150k miles. Autotrader suggests it's worth around £300-400 if it's in decent condition.
I'm going to keep it amicable from my side and ask him to carefully explain his situation. I want to understand why the flat tire stopped him from moving the car or contacting us. The irony is my Mum is overly hospitable and would probably have organised someone to help him get it to Kwik-Fit I expect. I want to understand why he presumably did not have a jack or a spare. Once I'm satisfied here I'd like to understand why the car was untaxed and for a long period before it turned up in the space. When was he planning to tax it? What was his reasoning.
It will be fairly straightforward to ascertain if he is lying. And if so, he will get no help from my side. If he tells the truth, and I will give him ample chance. Then I will help him out.
So we will see.
Freddy88FM said:
Hi all,
Update as promised. My Mum has been texted constantly over the bank holiday by the guy. Amusingly he told my Mum it was unacceptable for her not to reply since his last message 24 hours earlier. It took him 5 weeks and the disappearance of his car to contact us!
The tenant pays £125 per month for the space. The gentleman with the Golf cost them nearly £250.
Anyway, I'm taking over from here and will speak with the guy today. I don't expect him to be quite so abusive to a male. I spoke with the scrap dealer. They have not stripped the car yet. It's a P reg Golf GTi Mk3 in "dubious condition" with around 150k miles. Autotrader suggests it's worth around £300-400 if it's in decent condition.
I'm going to keep it amicable from my side and ask him to carefully explain his situation. I want to understand why the flat tire stopped him from moving the car or contacting us. The irony is my Mum is overly hospitable and would probably have organised someone to help him get it to Kwik-Fit I expect. I want to understand why he presumably did not have a jack or a spare. Once I'm satisfied here I'd like to understand why the car was untaxed and for a long period before it turned up in the space. When was he planning to tax it? What was his reasoning.
It will be fairly straightforward to ascertain if he is lying. And if so, he will get no help from my side. If he tells the truth, and I will give him ample chance. Then I will help him out.
So we will see.
No worries, tell him the location of the car once he pays your losses of the car space rent, pays the renter of the space for the parking he then had to pay and an inconvenience fee, then an 'admin fee' to you (admin fee as that seems to be the latest fad for inexplicably taking money)Update as promised. My Mum has been texted constantly over the bank holiday by the guy. Amusingly he told my Mum it was unacceptable for her not to reply since his last message 24 hours earlier. It took him 5 weeks and the disappearance of his car to contact us!
The tenant pays £125 per month for the space. The gentleman with the Golf cost them nearly £250.
Anyway, I'm taking over from here and will speak with the guy today. I don't expect him to be quite so abusive to a male. I spoke with the scrap dealer. They have not stripped the car yet. It's a P reg Golf GTi Mk3 in "dubious condition" with around 150k miles. Autotrader suggests it's worth around £300-400 if it's in decent condition.
I'm going to keep it amicable from my side and ask him to carefully explain his situation. I want to understand why the flat tire stopped him from moving the car or contacting us. The irony is my Mum is overly hospitable and would probably have organised someone to help him get it to Kwik-Fit I expect. I want to understand why he presumably did not have a jack or a spare. Once I'm satisfied here I'd like to understand why the car was untaxed and for a long period before it turned up in the space. When was he planning to tax it? What was his reasoning.
It will be fairly straightforward to ascertain if he is lying. And if so, he will get no help from my side. If he tells the truth, and I will give him ample chance. Then I will help him out.
So we will see.
Du1point8 said:
don't forget storage fees... 7 weeks at £15 a day = £525.
Ask him when he's going to pay up as you now owe the tenant around that figure as they rent that spot they parked in so are due a refund.
This.Ask him when he's going to pay up as you now owe the tenant around that figure as they rent that spot they parked in so are due a refund.
I honestly do not understand the ops position on this. The car has not truly been sold. It has been removed by a scrap dealer and is in the scrap dealers possesion. If the scrap dealer wishes to charge the owner of the car storage then fine if not no biggie there either. From the op and his moms position I cannot see how they could owe the owner anything at all.
As above says I would ask the owner for their details and send them an invoice for parking fees and leave it at that. Tell them where the car is and to sort it out from there from there themselves.
BV etc any idea of legal position for the op and his mom here?
photosnob said:
Okay - I'm not going to quote anyone as both of you guys have mentioned similar stuff.
If it was me, I'd have maybe tried to find out who's car it was and had a word, and if I couldn't I'd have let it go. I can park my car somewhere else and I'm honestly not that bothered. Life is too short to worry about small things like this.
I don't habitually park on other peoples property. For no other reason than it can annoy people and I like an easy life. I'm lazy enough to not want the aggro, and don't mind walking so will park further away.
My point is... If I did park my car somewhere else and someone took it to get crushed... Well I would not be polite on the phone either. The OP and his mother didn't know why that car didn't move. The person could have been ill, they could have died. They could even have been remanded to prison. I'm coming up with ridiculous scenarios, but none of us know.
With respect to the car being illegal in some way - well I'm pretty sure the Police would have looked into that. And in reality it makes no difference to me if a car has the right paperwork.
Here is what I do know - if I was taken to hospital and came out to find my car had been sold to a scrap man - I'd be looking to cause huge grief with whoever did that. For all you know the poor sod could have been sectioned.
Your whole argument falls flat though on the fact that the owner did not respond to any of the notes that were left. If it was me, I'd have maybe tried to find out who's car it was and had a word, and if I couldn't I'd have let it go. I can park my car somewhere else and I'm honestly not that bothered. Life is too short to worry about small things like this.
I don't habitually park on other peoples property. For no other reason than it can annoy people and I like an easy life. I'm lazy enough to not want the aggro, and don't mind walking so will park further away.
My point is... If I did park my car somewhere else and someone took it to get crushed... Well I would not be polite on the phone either. The OP and his mother didn't know why that car didn't move. The person could have been ill, they could have died. They could even have been remanded to prison. I'm coming up with ridiculous scenarios, but none of us know.
With respect to the car being illegal in some way - well I'm pretty sure the Police would have looked into that. And in reality it makes no difference to me if a car has the right paperwork.
Here is what I do know - if I was taken to hospital and came out to find my car had been sold to a scrap man - I'd be looking to cause huge grief with whoever did that. For all you know the poor sod could have been sectioned.
Why couldn't he contact the OP's mum and explain his situation? She might have been sympathetic had she been given the full story.
All of your what ifs are completely negated by the fact he consistently ignored her.
TroubledSoul said:
Why couldn't he contact the OP's mum and explain his situation? She might have been sympathetic had she been given the full story.
This is the greatest irony. She has been pretty involved with charity her whole life. Her rents are lower than the market value and she will only rent to the less fortunate. Most of her tenanted shops are charity shops or small independent businesses that are struggling. We all tell her she makes trouble for herself... taking on a guy who runs a cafe who is struggling after Costa came to town and he's going through a divorce. Not an ideal tenant! She really does do all she can for those around her. The fact she stupidly dealt with this car (and mistakenly in an illegal way) when it was contractually the tenant's problem is further illustration of that.She would have certainly helped the guy had he called and said he'd run out of tax and couldn't afford to renew it. Of course the car couldn't have stayed where it was however she'd have asked around for somewhere to keep it.
She's no pushover, don't get me wrong... however in her later years she's become more affected by abusive behaviour which is why I'm taking it on. The way this guy went at her was something else.
He hasn't returned my call yet. The scrap merchant said he appears 'not all there'. I don't exactly know what that means. Drugs perhaps.
EDIT: I am not sure if I mentioned but in addition to the various notices on the car (by my mum and the business owner) each resident and business owner with access to the car park was asked who the owner of the car was. Nobody claimed to know.
Edited by Freddy88FM on Tuesday 1st September 11:58
OP your Mum seems like a nice lady from what you have said. I have a lot of time for people who help out their community. I also do give allowances for old age.
So all I'll say is that if I were you I'd get this bloke his car back, just get it back. And then hope he shuts up about it. Pay the scrappy back the £40 - and hope it all goes away. The scrappy has been quite naughty himself and is potentially handling stolen goods so I'd think he'd want this smoothing over as well.
You can follow the absurd advice on here - and hope it all goes well. Ultimately if this goes nuclear it's your mother who is going to be standing in front of a county court judge. At her age, does she really want that? Other realistic scenarios are her having the police knock on the door and having to explain the theft. I know if I pulled a stunt like this I'd be expected to be leaving in handcuffs. Maybe one of the Police Officers on here would explain how they think this would go if a theft report like this came to them. Remember they usually ask the questions in an interview room - would your mum be okay with that?
The guy has probably been a dick. Fair enough. We have probably all been dicks in our time. You also are jumping the gun a bit - if a scrappy is saying the bloke isn't quite right do you want your mum potentially being confronted by him? Also whilst I am sure you are not concerned about this - having a bloke deal with it could potentially inflame it. If it were me I'd do my best to make it go away. I'd lose a couple of hundred quid for an easy life. I'd then help out my family member by sorting some private parking enforcement or bollards.
So all I'll say is that if I were you I'd get this bloke his car back, just get it back. And then hope he shuts up about it. Pay the scrappy back the £40 - and hope it all goes away. The scrappy has been quite naughty himself and is potentially handling stolen goods so I'd think he'd want this smoothing over as well.
You can follow the absurd advice on here - and hope it all goes well. Ultimately if this goes nuclear it's your mother who is going to be standing in front of a county court judge. At her age, does she really want that? Other realistic scenarios are her having the police knock on the door and having to explain the theft. I know if I pulled a stunt like this I'd be expected to be leaving in handcuffs. Maybe one of the Police Officers on here would explain how they think this would go if a theft report like this came to them. Remember they usually ask the questions in an interview room - would your mum be okay with that?
The guy has probably been a dick. Fair enough. We have probably all been dicks in our time. You also are jumping the gun a bit - if a scrappy is saying the bloke isn't quite right do you want your mum potentially being confronted by him? Also whilst I am sure you are not concerned about this - having a bloke deal with it could potentially inflame it. If it were me I'd do my best to make it go away. I'd lose a couple of hundred quid for an easy life. I'd then help out my family member by sorting some private parking enforcement or bollards.
photosnob said:
Okay - I'm not going to quote anyone as both of you guys have mentioned similar stuff.
If it was me, I'd have maybe tried to find out who's car it was and had a word, and if I couldn't I'd have let it go. I can park my car somewhere else and I'm honestly not that bothered. Life is too short to worry about small things like this.
So i take it your ok with me storing my soon-to-own ebay sh*t heap caravan on your front garden/driveway? I like dags.If it was me, I'd have maybe tried to find out who's car it was and had a word, and if I couldn't I'd have let it go. I can park my car somewhere else and I'm honestly not that bothered. Life is too short to worry about small things like this.
I would not class this as theft.
Definition : "A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it; and “thief” and “steal” shall be construed accordingly."
The following would be a defence in my opinion :
A person’s appropriation of property belonging to another is not to be regarded as dishonest — if he appropriates the property in the belief that the person to whom the property belongs cannot be discovered by taking reasonable steps.
She took all the steps she could do to locate the owner, left various notes on the vehicle, asked around. There was not much else she could do to locate the owner. As there was nothing dishonest, there is no theft.
Definition : "A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it; and “thief” and “steal” shall be construed accordingly."
The following would be a defence in my opinion :
A person’s appropriation of property belonging to another is not to be regarded as dishonest — if he appropriates the property in the belief that the person to whom the property belongs cannot be discovered by taking reasonable steps.
She took all the steps she could do to locate the owner, left various notes on the vehicle, asked around. There was not much else she could do to locate the owner. As there was nothing dishonest, there is no theft.
BobSaunders said:
So i take it your ok with me storing my soon-to-own ebay sh*t heap caravan on your front garden/driveway? I like dags.
I have no front garden or driveway. I have a path, then a 3 foot wall and then a load of parking spaces in front of the houses. You are free to park whatever you want there. Neighbours get upset by it. I get on with my life. photosnob said:
I'd lose a couple of hundred quid for an easy life. I'd then help out my family member by sorting some private parking enforcement or bollards.
Last time bollards were put up a guy walked in to one backwards (claimed he was carrying a box with a friend and didn't see the bollard, fell over it and tried to sue my mum via a no win no fee lawyer. The case was taken by the law firm and immediately dismissed by the courts. Fortunately the guy had a history of opportunistic suing. The bollards it turned out complied with all relevant laws. It cost us a chunk in legal fees and ended up with a big insurance premium hike because 'there had been an accident' on the premises regardless of the outcome. We removed the bollards. Several thousand in expenses.We then tried a barrier that would open when you pressed a button and would inform you to get out you needed a token from a the shop you visited. Within a week the barrier was bent off. This was replaced and then broken again in due course. Eventually it was left open because residents were sick of it being bent and jammed. Several thousand in expenses.
So yes, we've tried the usuals.
All this is to stop people like this man parking in the spaces and try to give the residents and businesses what they pay for. There are signs everywhere, each space has "PRIVATE" written in it on the floor and a sign on the wall outlining which shop/flat it belongs to.
My mum is not the kind of person to push a problem on someone else. I personally would have pulled it out on to the road and left it for the council. She didn't think that was fair at all.
Can I ask, what would you do if someone parked on your drive (EDIT: I see you have no drive, but let's assume you do- it has space for two cars) and after five weeks you couldn't get hold of them? They were stopping your wife parking in her space and leaving her to park on the road. I assume you'd do what I would have done... towed them out on to the road. But assuming, like my mum, you refuse to do that on moral grounds... what would you have done?
But yes, I appreciate this isn't something that should be worried about too much. Sadly she is worrying.
Edited by Freddy88FM on Tuesday 1st September 14:29
photosnob said:
I have no front garden or driveway. I have a path, then a 3 foot wall and then a load of parking spaces in front of the houses. You are free to park whatever you want there. Neighbours get upset by it. I get on with my life.
I would imagine those parking spaces are just general free to use by anyone bays. Not bays that residents pay a lease for. Slightly different. HantsRat said:
photosnob said:
I have no front garden or driveway. I have a path, then a 3 foot wall and then a load of parking spaces in front of the houses. You are free to park whatever you want there. Neighbours get upset by it. I get on with my life.
I would imagine those parking spaces are just general free to use by anyone bays. Not bays that residents pay a lease for. Slightly different. OP it's a tough situation you are in. I don't know what I'd do if I were in your mums position. I can only offer real life advice. And right now I'd resolve this situation as painlessly as possible. You can win some form of moral victory and risk a world of grief. I'd take the easy option.
OP, good on your Mum for doing what she wrote on the notes. Too many people just kick the tyres and mumble and walk off that's why so many of these chancers get away with it.
As far as any sane person can see, she left warnings, which the owner clearly saw as he got her number and he must have spotted the car had been moved fairly quickly too which means it wasn't like he was stranded away from the car.
He clearly had no off road space for his lump of junk and thought he would take advantage of the private space, probably after someone told him down the pub the police wouldn't get involved as its a civil matter.
Well that certainly gave him a scare when he saw it was gone! I would stick to your guns and take over from your mum and tell him straight, he can go get the car from the scrappy or leave it there and it gets binned.
Probably driving it uninsured too, so doing everyone a favour, I doubt even if the cocksocket tried taking it to court the judge wouldn't give it the time of day. In fact I bet that's why he is so put out, he probably isn't insured, so cant tax it and it will fail the mot by the sounds of it so hes probably out of options even if you did return it!
As far as any sane person can see, she left warnings, which the owner clearly saw as he got her number and he must have spotted the car had been moved fairly quickly too which means it wasn't like he was stranded away from the car.
He clearly had no off road space for his lump of junk and thought he would take advantage of the private space, probably after someone told him down the pub the police wouldn't get involved as its a civil matter.
Well that certainly gave him a scare when he saw it was gone! I would stick to your guns and take over from your mum and tell him straight, he can go get the car from the scrappy or leave it there and it gets binned.
Probably driving it uninsured too, so doing everyone a favour, I doubt even if the cocksocket tried taking it to court the judge wouldn't give it the time of day. In fact I bet that's why he is so put out, he probably isn't insured, so cant tax it and it will fail the mot by the sounds of it so hes probably out of options even if you did return it!
Edited by spats on Tuesday 1st September 15:05
photosnob said:
OP it's a tough situation you are in. I don't know what I'd do if I were in your mums position. I can only offer real life advice. And right now I'd resolve this situation as painlessly as possible. You can win some form of moral victory and risk a world of grief. I'd take the easy option.
Entirely appreciate what you're saying and definitely wise advice. This particular nuisance sadly transcends the moral side simply due to the costs already incurred (£250 rent). This alone already almost equals the value of his cars upper estimate. Though if it came down to it as we said the tenant should deal with the problem and still pay his rent. Sadly my Mum won't demand this. Plus five weeks of pissing about and the hassle that it's caused. I'm just reluctant to pay the bloke for dumping an untaxed car in a private yard tucked away from the road (which is what it is... there are only 8 spaces .... all private), abusive behaviour and his general disinterest prior to his car disappearing.I agree. another £300 for his car is cheaper than the legal battle. Him suing for the cost of his car and us suing for expenses. Hey ho. Let's see. Once he gets in contact... I'll update.
UPDATE:
So, just got a call from my Mum. She has had a call from the business whose space was taken (a small interior design shop). The owner has learned (somehow) that the guy in question is already in trouble with the Police over the car. It seems he was caught driving without tax or insurance. It seems he subsequently dumped it.
Details are sketchy but as we learn more I will update. This certain does explain why he's beginning to dodge calls!
So, just got a call from my Mum. She has had a call from the business whose space was taken (a small interior design shop). The owner has learned (somehow) that the guy in question is already in trouble with the Police over the car. It seems he was caught driving without tax or insurance. It seems he subsequently dumped it.
Details are sketchy but as we learn more I will update. This certain does explain why he's beginning to dodge calls!
Durzel said:
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hstewie said:
hstewie said: I'm not sure I'd interpret "remove it from my property" as "sell it for scrap metal" tbh.
This. Regardless of the ethics of leaving a car on someone's private property, removing it is some distance away from disposing of it.
Freddy88FM said:
Entirely appreciate what you're saying and definitely wise advice. This particular nuisance sadly transcends the moral side simply due to the costs already incurred (£250 rent). This alone already almost equals the value of his cars upper estimate. Though if it came down to it as we said the tenant should deal with the problem and still pay his rent. Sadly my Mum won't demand this. Plus five weeks of pissing about and the hassle that it's caused. I'm just reluctant to pay the bloke for dumping an untaxed car in a private yard tucked away from the road (which is what it is... there are only 8 spaces .... all private), abusive behaviour and his general disinterest prior to his car disappearing.
I agree. another £300 for his car is cheaper than the legal battle. Him suing for the cost of his car and us suing for expenses. Hey ho. Let's see. Once he gets in contact... I'll update.
Sorry, missed why you are £250 down on rent? Does mother rent out the space separately from the Lease of the shop? Or is the shop rent rather generous? I certainly hope that there has been no abaitment of the whole or even a significatnt part of the rent for the shop premises or else your mum has been rolled by two con merchants and one of them is sitting in her property...I agree. another £300 for his car is cheaper than the legal battle. Him suing for the cost of his car and us suing for expenses. Hey ho. Let's see. Once he gets in contact... I'll update.
As another has alluded to - depending on the drafting of the Lease then it is highly likely that the bloke parking in the allocated spaces for the shop is a tennants issue, not a landlords....
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