Abandoned car on private property.
Discussion
(1) The car owner was a twunt to dump his car on the property, but...
(2) The landowner was wrong to have the car moved. She (or maybe the tenant, but whatevs) had become what is known as an involuntary bailee of the car, and so had a duty to take reasonable care of it, but could also make a reasonable charge for storing the car, and/or seek damages for trespass to cover any loss caused by the trespass.
(3) Moving the car was not stealing it (Hants Rat is correct about this - the element of dishonesty is lacking).
(4) The landowner could lawfully sell the car under the Torts (Interference with Goods Act) 1977 after taking some steps set out in the Act.
(5) The police are right - this really is a matter in which the landowner and the car owner could battle it out with competing civil claims. It's not a criminal matter. If the car owner has committed motoring-related offences, that doesn't alter the position between him and the landowner.
(2) The landowner was wrong to have the car moved. She (or maybe the tenant, but whatevs) had become what is known as an involuntary bailee of the car, and so had a duty to take reasonable care of it, but could also make a reasonable charge for storing the car, and/or seek damages for trespass to cover any loss caused by the trespass.
(3) Moving the car was not stealing it (Hants Rat is correct about this - the element of dishonesty is lacking).
(4) The landowner could lawfully sell the car under the Torts (Interference with Goods Act) 1977 after taking some steps set out in the Act.
(5) The police are right - this really is a matter in which the landowner and the car owner could battle it out with competing civil claims. It's not a criminal matter. If the car owner has committed motoring-related offences, that doesn't alter the position between him and the landowner.
Freddy88FM said:
photosnob said:
OP it's a tough situation you are in. I don't know what I'd do if I were in your mums position. I can only offer real life advice. And right now I'd resolve this situation as painlessly as possible. You can win some form of moral victory and risk a world of grief. I'd take the easy option.
Entirely appreciate what you're saying and definitely wise advice. This particular nuisance sadly transcends the moral side simply due to the costs already incurred (£250 rent). This alone already almost equals the value of his cars upper estimate. Though if it came down to it as we said the tenant should deal with the problem and still pay his rent. Sadly my Mum won't demand this. Plus five weeks of pissing about and the hassle that it's caused. I'm just reluctant to pay the bloke for dumping an untaxed car in a private yard tucked away from the road (which is what it is... there are only 8 spaces .... all private), abusive behaviour and his general disinterest prior to his car disappearing.I agree. another £300 for his car is cheaper than the legal battle. Him suing for the cost of his car and us suing for expenses. Hey ho. Let's see. Once he gets in contact... I'll update.
t a lesson - not that I think for one minute you'll lose any action or face any criminal proceedings.
Breadvan72 said:
(1) The car owner was a twunt to dump his car on the property, but...
(2) The landowner was wrong to have the car moved. She (or maybe the tenant, but whatevs) had become what is known as an involuntary bailee of the car, and so had a duty to take reasonable care of it, but could also make a reasonable charge for storing the car, and/or seek damages for trespass to cover any loss caused by the trespass.
(3) Moving the car was not stealing it (Hants Rat is correct about this - the element of dishonesty is lacking).
(4) The landowner could lawfully sell the car under the Torts (Interference with Goods Act) 1977 after taking some steps set out in the Act.
(5) The police are right - this really is a matter in which the landowner and the car owner could battle it out with competing civil claims. It's not a criminal matter. If the car owner has committed motoring-related offences, that doesn't alter the position between him and the landowner.
Highly appreciated. Thank you.(2) The landowner was wrong to have the car moved. She (or maybe the tenant, but whatevs) had become what is known as an involuntary bailee of the car, and so had a duty to take reasonable care of it, but could also make a reasonable charge for storing the car, and/or seek damages for trespass to cover any loss caused by the trespass.
(3) Moving the car was not stealing it (Hants Rat is correct about this - the element of dishonesty is lacking).
(4) The landowner could lawfully sell the car under the Torts (Interference with Goods Act) 1977 after taking some steps set out in the Act.
(5) The police are right - this really is a matter in which the landowner and the car owner could battle it out with competing civil claims. It's not a criminal matter. If the car owner has committed motoring-related offences, that doesn't alter the position between him and the landowner.
photosnob said:
If the mother calls the police I'd hope any self respecting police officer would arrest her. What she has done is theft... She has sold something that doesn't belong to her. Plain and simple.
I'll remember that it's okay to help people get away with criminal offences next time by telling them what lies to tell. I'll offer helpful advice on how to get cheaper insurance and get away with it as well.
The fact that any of you hypocrites are telling the old girl to call the police is astonishing. Op it's your mum, she decided to sell someone's property so that it could be destroyed - so tell her to sort it herself. If you want to deal with it go and see the bloke yourself and admit what she has done. I'd take some big friends with you though.
Did she sell it ?I'll remember that it's okay to help people get away with criminal offences next time by telling them what lies to tell. I'll offer helpful advice on how to get cheaper insurance and get away with it as well.
The fact that any of you hypocrites are telling the old girl to call the police is astonishing. Op it's your mum, she decided to sell someone's property so that it could be destroyed - so tell her to sort it herself. If you want to deal with it go and see the bloke yourself and admit what she has done. I'd take some big friends with you though.
The OP's statement could be interpreted that she paid the scrap merchant to remove the car .
Hello all,
Sorry to leave you in the dark. Here the update thus far:
The guy went to the scrap dealer again recently and refused to take the car. He told them to scrap it and he'd come after us for compensation. They asked if he would like the possessions from inside the car. He said no.
Posessions included two previous recovery notices for illegal parking. One with a ticket value of £500!!! So this isn’t the first (or the second) time he’s dumped the car and had it towed.
It also transpires that not only was the car not taxed, it was not insured. It was driven in illegally and then dumped.
I spoke to the guy and gave him every chance to explain what had happened. He kept blaming us over and over. I asked him to explain what had happened (as an ‘agent’ for the car park acting for my mum). I said I didn’t know the story.
He told me he parked, went to the shop and then had a flat tire. While he was sorting out the tire the car was towed and scrapped. He said it happened over a ‘week or two’. I asked if he’d spoken to anyone to let them know his scenario. He said yes, but refused to say who gave him persmission to stay.
I spoke to the shop owner again, he didn’t use their shop nor did she give him permission to stay in her space. She never met him. We checked dates with residents and the car had been there at least five weeks. Perhaps longer. Not only that but not a single resident, business owner or any other person with access to the car park knows who this guy is or was asked if he could store his car there.
I asked if the car was roadworthy, he said yes, with the exception of the tire. I asked if he knew it was untaxed. He denied it. I told him of the DVLA system online to check and that I’d done so and it was not taxed. I asked him if it was insured. He said yes. I told him it wasn’t (scrap firm informed me of this).
I called the police to inform them of his threatening behaviour to my mum. They sent a community support officer to see him.
Obviously the fact still stands that my Mum scrapped his car… which she should not have done before sending a letter to his home address through the DVLA it seems.
I offered him compensaiton for his loss. But it will be less our costs. I said if he is interested to contact me within five days and we can talk figures. He didn’t make contact.
He texted me on Monday to say that he is beginning legal action. I personally don’t believe him and so won’t tell my Mum until I’m more sure. So it’s not over just yet.
As a final note: Breadvan has been very helpful to us in this whole experience. I really appreciate his help and kind pointers. He’s a top guy and a credit to the PH community.
Finally: no money was exchanged between the scrap merchant and my mum in the end. We felt it best to avoid a payment obviously!
Sorry to leave you in the dark. Here the update thus far:
The guy went to the scrap dealer again recently and refused to take the car. He told them to scrap it and he'd come after us for compensation. They asked if he would like the possessions from inside the car. He said no.
Posessions included two previous recovery notices for illegal parking. One with a ticket value of £500!!! So this isn’t the first (or the second) time he’s dumped the car and had it towed.
It also transpires that not only was the car not taxed, it was not insured. It was driven in illegally and then dumped.
I spoke to the guy and gave him every chance to explain what had happened. He kept blaming us over and over. I asked him to explain what had happened (as an ‘agent’ for the car park acting for my mum). I said I didn’t know the story.
He told me he parked, went to the shop and then had a flat tire. While he was sorting out the tire the car was towed and scrapped. He said it happened over a ‘week or two’. I asked if he’d spoken to anyone to let them know his scenario. He said yes, but refused to say who gave him persmission to stay.
I spoke to the shop owner again, he didn’t use their shop nor did she give him permission to stay in her space. She never met him. We checked dates with residents and the car had been there at least five weeks. Perhaps longer. Not only that but not a single resident, business owner or any other person with access to the car park knows who this guy is or was asked if he could store his car there.
I asked if the car was roadworthy, he said yes, with the exception of the tire. I asked if he knew it was untaxed. He denied it. I told him of the DVLA system online to check and that I’d done so and it was not taxed. I asked him if it was insured. He said yes. I told him it wasn’t (scrap firm informed me of this).
I called the police to inform them of his threatening behaviour to my mum. They sent a community support officer to see him.
Obviously the fact still stands that my Mum scrapped his car… which she should not have done before sending a letter to his home address through the DVLA it seems.
I offered him compensaiton for his loss. But it will be less our costs. I said if he is interested to contact me within five days and we can talk figures. He didn’t make contact.
He texted me on Monday to say that he is beginning legal action. I personally don’t believe him and so won’t tell my Mum until I’m more sure. So it’s not over just yet.
As a final note: Breadvan has been very helpful to us in this whole experience. I really appreciate his help and kind pointers. He’s a top guy and a credit to the PH community.
Finally: no money was exchanged between the scrap merchant and my mum in the end. We felt it best to avoid a payment obviously!
Edited by Freddy88FM on Friday 11th September 11:29
Sorry to hear about this sorry situation you've found yourself in.
I sincerely hope he doesn't go down the legal route. If he has sense, he won't; even if he would win I doubt he'd actually get any money awarded, given the value of the loss against the relevant costs incurred by your Mother. Expensive course of action for him, you and a waste of the courts time.
I sincerely hope he doesn't go down the legal route. If he has sense, he won't; even if he would win I doubt he'd actually get any money awarded, given the value of the loss against the relevant costs incurred by your Mother. Expensive course of action for him, you and a waste of the courts time.
Freddy88FM said:
Hello all,
Sorry to leave you in the dark. Here the update thus far:
The guy went to the scrap dealer again recently and refused to take the car. He told them to scrap it and he'd come after us for compensation. They asked if he would like the possessions from inside the car. He said no.
Posessions included two previous recovery notices for illegal parking. One with a ticket value of £500!!! So this isn’t the first (or the second) time he’s dumped the car and had it towed.
It also transpires that not only was the car not taxed, it was not insured. It was driven in illegally and then dumped.
I spoke to the guy and gave him every chance to explain what had happened. He kept blaming us over and over. I asked him to explain what had happened (as an ‘agent’ for the car park acting for my mum). I said I didn’t know the story.
He told me he parked, went to the shop and then had a flat tire. While he was sorting out the tire the car was towed and scrapped. He said it happened over a ‘week or two’. I asked if he’d spoken to anyone to let them know his scenario. He said yes, but refused to say who gave him persmission to stay.
I spoke to the shop owner again, he didn’t use their shop nor did she give him permission to stay in her space. She never met him. We checked dates with residents and the car had been there at least five weeks. Perhaps longer. Not only that but not a single resident, business owner or any other person with access to the car park knows who this guy is or was asked if he could store his car there.
I asked if the car was roadworthy, he said yes, with the exception of the tire. I asked if he knew it was untaxed. He denied it. I told him of the DVLA system online to check and that I’d done so and it was not taxed. I asked him if it was insured. He said yes. I told him it wasn’t (scrap firm informed me of this).
I called the police to inform them of his threatening behaviour to my mum. They sent a community support officer to see him.
Obviously the fact still stands that my Mum scrapped his car… which she should not have done before sending a letter to his home address through the DVLA it seems.
I offered him compensaiton for his loss. But it will be less our costs. I said if he is interested to contact me within five days and we can talk figures. He didn’t make contact.
He texted me on Monday to say that he is beginning legal action. I personally don’t believe him and so won’t tell my Mum until I’m more sure. So it’s not over just yet.
As a final note: Breadvan has been very helpful to us in this whole experience. I really appreciate his help and kind pointers. He’s a top guy and a credit to the PH community.
Finally: no money was exchanged between the scrap merchant and my mum in the end. We felt it best to avoid a payment obviously!
He sounds like a proper dSorry to leave you in the dark. Here the update thus far:
The guy went to the scrap dealer again recently and refused to take the car. He told them to scrap it and he'd come after us for compensation. They asked if he would like the possessions from inside the car. He said no.
Posessions included two previous recovery notices for illegal parking. One with a ticket value of £500!!! So this isn’t the first (or the second) time he’s dumped the car and had it towed.
It also transpires that not only was the car not taxed, it was not insured. It was driven in illegally and then dumped.
I spoke to the guy and gave him every chance to explain what had happened. He kept blaming us over and over. I asked him to explain what had happened (as an ‘agent’ for the car park acting for my mum). I said I didn’t know the story.
He told me he parked, went to the shop and then had a flat tire. While he was sorting out the tire the car was towed and scrapped. He said it happened over a ‘week or two’. I asked if he’d spoken to anyone to let them know his scenario. He said yes, but refused to say who gave him persmission to stay.
I spoke to the shop owner again, he didn’t use their shop nor did she give him permission to stay in her space. She never met him. We checked dates with residents and the car had been there at least five weeks. Perhaps longer. Not only that but not a single resident, business owner or any other person with access to the car park knows who this guy is or was asked if he could store his car there.
I asked if the car was roadworthy, he said yes, with the exception of the tire. I asked if he knew it was untaxed. He denied it. I told him of the DVLA system online to check and that I’d done so and it was not taxed. I asked him if it was insured. He said yes. I told him it wasn’t (scrap firm informed me of this).
I called the police to inform them of his threatening behaviour to my mum. They sent a community support officer to see him.
Obviously the fact still stands that my Mum scrapped his car… which she should not have done before sending a letter to his home address through the DVLA it seems.
I offered him compensaiton for his loss. But it will be less our costs. I said if he is interested to contact me within five days and we can talk figures. He didn’t make contact.
He texted me on Monday to say that he is beginning legal action. I personally don’t believe him and so won’t tell my Mum until I’m more sure. So it’s not over just yet.
As a final note: Breadvan has been very helpful to us in this whole experience. I really appreciate his help and kind pointers. He’s a top guy and a credit to the PH community.
Finally: no money was exchanged between the scrap merchant and my mum in the end. We felt it best to avoid a payment obviously!
Edited by Freddy88FM on Friday 11th September 11:29
head.
Vaud said:
So he has been offered his car back.
He's an idiot.
With respect I disagree.He's an idiot.
He knows full well the car is a worthless POS. He knows that any residual value exceeds what the scrapyard want in lieu of towing and storage. He thinks he'll be able to intimidate OP's mum into paying him a reasonable amount of money with threats of court action. Ergo not an idiot but more a devious selfish twunt looking for compensayshun.
Countdown said:
With respect I disagree.
He knows full well the car is a worthless POS. He knows that any residual value exceeds what the scrapyard want in lieu of towing and storage. He thinks he'll be able to intimidate OP's mum into paying him a reasonable amount of money with threats of court action. Ergo not an idiot but more a devious selfish twunt looking for compensayshun.
Sorry, yes, you put it better.He knows full well the car is a worthless POS. He knows that any residual value exceeds what the scrapyard want in lieu of towing and storage. He thinks he'll be able to intimidate OP's mum into paying him a reasonable amount of money with threats of court action. Ergo not an idiot but more a devious selfish twunt looking for compensayshun.
Freddy88FM said:
Hello all,
Sorry to leave you in the dark. Here the update thus far:
The guy went to the scrap dealer again recently and refused to take the car. He told them to scrap it and he'd come after us for compensation. They asked if he would like the possessions from inside the car. He said no.
Posessions included two previous recovery notices for illegal parking. One with a ticket value of £500!!! So this isn’t the first (or the second) time he’s dumped the car and had it towed.
It also transpires that not only was the car not taxed, it was not insured. It was driven in illegally and then dumped.
I spoke to the guy and gave him every chance to explain what had happened. He kept blaming us over and over. I asked him to explain what had happened (as an ‘agent’ for the car park acting for my mum). I said I didn’t know the story.
He told me he parked, went to the shop and then had a flat tire. While he was sorting out the tire the car was towed and scrapped. He said it happened over a ‘week or two’. I asked if he’d spoken to anyone to let them know his scenario. He said yes, but refused to say who gave him persmission to stay.
I spoke to the shop owner again, he didn’t use their shop nor did she give him permission to stay in her space. She never met him. We checked dates with residents and the car had been there at least five weeks. Perhaps longer. Not only that but not a single resident, business owner or any other person with access to the car park knows who this guy is or was asked if he could store his car there.
I asked if the car was roadworthy, he said yes, with the exception of the tire. I asked if he knew it was untaxed. He denied it. I told him of the DVLA system online to check and that I’d done so and it was not taxed. I asked him if it was insured. He said yes. I told him it wasn’t (scrap firm informed me of this).
I called the police to inform them of his threatening behaviour to my mum. They sent a community support officer to see him.
Obviously the fact still stands that my Mum scrapped his car… which she should not have done before sending a letter to his home address through the DVLA it seems.
I offered him compensaiton for his loss. But it will be less our costs. I said if he is interested to contact me within five days and we can talk figures. He didn’t make contact.
He texted me on Monday to say that he is beginning legal action. I personally don’t believe him and so won’t tell my Mum until I’m more sure. So it’s not over just yet.
As a final note: Breadvan has been very helpful to us in this whole experience. I really appreciate his help and kind pointers. He’s a top guy and a credit to the PH community.
Finally: no money was exchanged between the scrap merchant and my mum in the end. We felt it best to avoid a payment obviously!
Might not attack be the best form of defence ?Sorry to leave you in the dark. Here the update thus far:
The guy went to the scrap dealer again recently and refused to take the car. He told them to scrap it and he'd come after us for compensation. They asked if he would like the possessions from inside the car. He said no.
Posessions included two previous recovery notices for illegal parking. One with a ticket value of £500!!! So this isn’t the first (or the second) time he’s dumped the car and had it towed.
It also transpires that not only was the car not taxed, it was not insured. It was driven in illegally and then dumped.
I spoke to the guy and gave him every chance to explain what had happened. He kept blaming us over and over. I asked him to explain what had happened (as an ‘agent’ for the car park acting for my mum). I said I didn’t know the story.
He told me he parked, went to the shop and then had a flat tire. While he was sorting out the tire the car was towed and scrapped. He said it happened over a ‘week or two’. I asked if he’d spoken to anyone to let them know his scenario. He said yes, but refused to say who gave him persmission to stay.
I spoke to the shop owner again, he didn’t use their shop nor did she give him permission to stay in her space. She never met him. We checked dates with residents and the car had been there at least five weeks. Perhaps longer. Not only that but not a single resident, business owner or any other person with access to the car park knows who this guy is or was asked if he could store his car there.
I asked if the car was roadworthy, he said yes, with the exception of the tire. I asked if he knew it was untaxed. He denied it. I told him of the DVLA system online to check and that I’d done so and it was not taxed. I asked him if it was insured. He said yes. I told him it wasn’t (scrap firm informed me of this).
I called the police to inform them of his threatening behaviour to my mum. They sent a community support officer to see him.
Obviously the fact still stands that my Mum scrapped his car… which she should not have done before sending a letter to his home address through the DVLA it seems.
I offered him compensaiton for his loss. But it will be less our costs. I said if he is interested to contact me within five days and we can talk figures. He didn’t make contact.
He texted me on Monday to say that he is beginning legal action. I personally don’t believe him and so won’t tell my Mum until I’m more sure. So it’s not over just yet.
As a final note: Breadvan has been very helpful to us in this whole experience. I really appreciate his help and kind pointers. He’s a top guy and a credit to the PH community.
Finally: no money was exchanged between the scrap merchant and my mum in the end. We felt it best to avoid a payment obviously!
Edited by Freddy88FM on Friday 11th September 11:29
Raise a small claims action against him for the losses in revenue from the parking space over the five week period , the time and effort spent trying to contact him while you put up with this car occupying your rented out space ( which you have to credit back to the tenant ) , the charges for removal and storage of the vehicle .
Be sure to mention that it appears not to be street legal and the circumstances of its arrival , also the manner of the owners contacts with your mum and that he placed her in a state of fear and alarm with his threatening behaviour .
Given that he is likely to be ill prepared to defend this , the chances are the matter will be decided in your favour - the point is not to expect to recover any money from him , just to have the matter settled in court , after which he is unlikely to raise any further action , since you can defend by referring to the outcome of this case .
What do others think ?
Pontoneer said:
Might not attack be the best form of defence ?
Raise a small claims action against him for the losses in revenue from the parking space over the five week period , the time and effort spent trying to contact him while you put up with this car occupying your rented out space ( which you have to credit back to the tenant ) , the charges for removal and storage of the vehicle .
Be sure to mention that it appears not to be street legal and the circumstances of its arrival , also the manner of the owners contacts with your mum and that he placed her in a state of fear and alarm with his threatening behaviour .
Given that he is likely to be ill prepared to defend this , the chances are the matter will be decided in your favour - the point is not to expect to recover any money from him , just to have the matter settled in court , after which he is unlikely to raise any further action , since you can defend by referring to the outcome of this case .
What do others think ?
I think that you should not be the ideas person in the future.Raise a small claims action against him for the losses in revenue from the parking space over the five week period , the time and effort spent trying to contact him while you put up with this car occupying your rented out space ( which you have to credit back to the tenant ) , the charges for removal and storage of the vehicle .
Be sure to mention that it appears not to be street legal and the circumstances of its arrival , also the manner of the owners contacts with your mum and that he placed her in a state of fear and alarm with his threatening behaviour .
Given that he is likely to be ill prepared to defend this , the chances are the matter will be decided in your favour - the point is not to expect to recover any money from him , just to have the matter settled in court , after which he is unlikely to raise any further action , since you can defend by referring to the outcome of this case .
What do others think ?
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