Police response vehicles without Sirens, non response with
Discussion
Is it advantageous for the organisation financially or just individuals? If the former then that may be justified, if just the latter then it isn't.
In terms of a wider discussion around fleets, what else does anyone expect? Most of the funding is spent on staff (> 80%). The larger parts of non-staff funding is buildings and vehicles.
In terms of a wider discussion around fleets, what else does anyone expect? Most of the funding is spent on staff (> 80%). The larger parts of non-staff funding is buildings and vehicles.
Devon and Cornwall police have a 530d tourings unmarked with lights used by high up staff. I once witnessed some shocking motorway driving undertaking and such like by one of these cars no lights on. I called a senior roads police inspector I know who ran the plate and it was blocked. Turned out it was a very senior officer who's marriage was on the rocks she admitted the driving and I was asked to give a formal statement as was another complaint.
She only had a standard response ticket but got a full kitted 520 as company car, she was dressed and given a fresh driving course.
She only had a standard response ticket but got a full kitted 520 as company car, she was dressed and given a fresh driving course.
Bigends said:
We used to be restricted to whatever engine size our driving ticket covered us for. After retirement and goinfg back into Plod as a civvy investigator I drove whatever I could get keys for - marked or unmarked.
Edited by Bigends on Friday 4th September 16:43
It used to be like that here but it changed a little while back.
Elroy Blue said:
Response teams have been cut. Response cars have been cut. Vehicles not equipped to make emergency response calls are now having to plug the ever increasing gap. It's a fact.
This is a big part of the problem. Locally, we've suffered as much as 50% attrition in manpower on some shifts. The vehicle pool has shrunk considerably too, but that's long been mired in it's own problems. The Vauxhall Astra 1.3CDTi cars were just hopeless and broke constantly (as well as being an awful drive). The new Astras are considerably better, but the overall pool available, even when they're all working, has shrunk considerably. When I started, there was always a surplus of staff on shift compared to cars, and you'd be expected to go out on foot because there wasn't anything for you to drive. Although you could expect to wait two years for a driving course!Now, they're trying to plug the gap by letting anyone drive with a 'basic' authority as long as they pass the assessment drive. On one hand, this is useful as it lets the new staff drive but it has a knock on effect to actual emergency response. Plenty of times I've been asked to attend an emergency as the only available resource, only for me to be stuck without anything to actually drive there. The problem is further compounded by other departments taking cars, and it was usual for two Community Support Officers to drive marked response vehicles around their beats, leaving the responders short handed. The right vehicle for the right job is integral to doing the job within the constraints of the day, it's amazing how badly things go wrong when the right wheels aren't there.
I said long ago that there should be national police emergency vehicle. If all forces grouped together they could get a much better deal on a better car, with properly sourced and standardised equipment. Instead, you still have a mishmash of different cars doing different things.
Baryonyx said:
This is a big part of the problem. Locally, we've suffered as much as 50% attrition in manpower on some shifts. The vehicle pool has shrunk considerably too, but that's long been mired in it's own problems. The Vauxhall Astra 1.3CDTi cars were just hopeless and broke constantly (as well as being an awful drive). The new Astras are considerably better, but the overall pool available, even when they're all working, has shrunk considerably. When I started, there was always a surplus of staff on shift compared to cars, and you'd be expected to go out on foot because there wasn't anything for you to drive. Although you could expect to wait two years for a driving course!
Now, they're trying to plug the gap by letting anyone drive with a 'basic' authority as long as they pass the assessment drive. On one hand, this is useful as it lets the new staff drive but it has a knock on effect to actual emergency response. Plenty of times I've been asked to attend an emergency as the only available resource, only for me to be stuck without anything to actually drive there. The problem is further compounded by other departments taking cars, and it was usual for two Community Support Officers to drive marked response vehicles around their beats, leaving the responders short handed. The right vehicle for the right job is integral to doing the job within the constraints of the day, it's amazing how badly things go wrong when the right wheels aren't there.
I said long ago that there should be national police emergency vehicle. If all forces grouped together they could get a much better deal on a better car, with properly sourced and standardised equipment. Instead, you still have a mishmash of different cars doing different things.
Kick the PCSO's out on foot where theyre supposed to be - not swanning around in cars which ours do at every opportunityNow, they're trying to plug the gap by letting anyone drive with a 'basic' authority as long as they pass the assessment drive. On one hand, this is useful as it lets the new staff drive but it has a knock on effect to actual emergency response. Plenty of times I've been asked to attend an emergency as the only available resource, only for me to be stuck without anything to actually drive there. The problem is further compounded by other departments taking cars, and it was usual for two Community Support Officers to drive marked response vehicles around their beats, leaving the responders short handed. The right vehicle for the right job is integral to doing the job within the constraints of the day, it's amazing how badly things go wrong when the right wheels aren't there.
I said long ago that there should be national police emergency vehicle. If all forces grouped together they could get a much better deal on a better car, with properly sourced and standardised equipment. Instead, you still have a mishmash of different cars doing different things.
Bigends said:
Kick the PCSO's out on foot where theyre supposed to be - not swanning around in cars which ours do at every opportunity
We would, although their supervision would argue that we all have to share the cars and that they need to get to their beats too. Most of the time though, they'd sneak the keys out and drive without booking on the set, only surfacing when they returned with fish and chips to go and watch the football in the bait room. I've raised the issue that them taking keys to response cars has a knock on effect of us not actually being able to do our jobs, and that no-one would die if they had to walk instead of driving, but it falls on deaf ears. I should add that they're not all that selfish though, some know quite rightly that they shouldn't take a response car.Baryonyx said:
We would, although their supervision would argue that we all have to share the cars and that they need to get to their beats too. Most of the time though, they'd sneak the keys out and drive without booking on the set, only surfacing when they returned with fish and chips to go and watch the football in the bait room. I've raised the issue that them taking keys to response cars has a knock on effect of us not actually being able to do our jobs, and that no-one would die if they had to walk instead of driving, but it falls on deaf ears. I should add that they're not all that selfish though, some know quite rightly that they shouldn't take a response car.
I'd be having that massive. Baryonyx said:
We would, although their supervision would argue that we all have to share the cars and that they need to get to their beats too. Most of the time though, they'd sneak the keys out and drive without booking on the set, only surfacing when they returned with fish and chips to go and watch the football in the bait room. I've raised the issue that them taking keys to response cars has a knock on effect of us not actually being able to do our jobs, and that no-one would die if they had to walk instead of driving, but it falls on deaf ears. I should add that they're not all that selfish though, some know quite rightly that they shouldn't take a response car.
I was SNT for years and biked or walked everywhere. Greendubber said:
I saw some warks PCSO's tooling about in a public order carrier not long ago....had to do a double take.
My force they used to have none lighted fiestas but now they have light bar corsas.I see pesos driving freelancers and marked police vans and even a astra estate the other day in disable space at asda, all the ones i have met seem to being boarder line personality defective, sweeney wanna be's
Edited by jbsportstech on Friday 4th September 18:31
HantsRat said:
It's sometimes easier & cheaper to leave the lights/sirens in place. It doesn't mean the IT/HR staff are blue lighting to their next meeting or as you put... 'looning around'. As much as the Daily Mail would love you to believe.
But the lights and sirens come out when the car is sold (no doubt at the same cost) so why not just take them out if the older high mileage car is been utilised elsewhere.Edited by HantsRat on Friday 4th September 11:23
Put temptation into the hands of even the most diligent of people and some will take that moment of stupidity to give a quick flash of the blues to get through traffic etc.
Greendubber said:
I saw some warks PCSO's tooling about in a public order carrier not long ago....had to do a double take.
likewise an unmarked 4x4 with lights ( possibly even horns), being used by Plastics. But there's one other problem in Warks- mis use of sirens, at times when lights will suffice .Reason- long time ago our County man found out that the sirens were what break&entry bloke looked out for. 999 report- car goes out- no one there - when the sirens got close, they legged it. Trial period, sirens were shut off early and lots more were caught on site. But the real problem is the demise on estates of the local beat officer. Replaced by ( if a decent sense of direction ) single PCSO. Standard joke round here is how many PCSO to do a job. TWO- one to get there, second one remembers route to retrace steps. Three- as two ,but third one has something to investigate, and might get lost getting there .
Who me said:
likewise an unmarked 4x4 with lights ( possibly even horns), being used by Plastics. But there's one other problem in Warks- mis use of sirens, at times when lights will suffice .Reason- long time ago our County man found out that the sirens were what break&entry bloke looked out for. 999 report- car goes out- no one there - when the sirens got close, they legged it. Trial period, sirens were shut off early and lots more were caught on site.
But the real problem is the demise on estates of the local beat officer. Replaced by ( if a decent sense of direction ) single PCSO. Standard joke round here is how many PCSO to do a job. TWO- one to get there, second one remembers route to retrace steps. Three- as two ,but third one has something to investigate, and might get lost getting there .
What a hilarious joke. But the real problem is the demise on estates of the local beat officer. Replaced by ( if a decent sense of direction ) single PCSO. Standard joke round here is how many PCSO to do a job. TWO- one to get there, second one remembers route to retrace steps. Three- as two ,but third one has something to investigate, and might get lost getting there .
My force will, in four years time, have lost more or less a third of its officer establishment since 2010. Not only that, the number of civilian staff has suffered even larger cuts, something in excess of 40% by the same date. There are few patrolling officers, they are all doing something else (contrary to Home Office figures I know, but somehow I think they are wrong - controversial or what?) such as paperwork, queuing in cell blocks as not enough staff to speed things up, or typing reports. Or perhaps dealing with those people who are the responsibility of others, but the police cannot abandon.
An even funnier joke is: How many under-trained and under-resourced and powerless PCSOs does it take to patrol an estate where there is likely to be trouble and any back-up is not so much a long way away, as even longer and probably vehicle-less? The answer: Way too few for their own safety.
Not only that, but the cuts are not only worse than reported, for some forces they are going to get much worse than even they expected. See: http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/sep/04/exc...
Odd that as the Federation said that this was going to happen and instead of denying the accusation, May said that the fed had said similar things, about morale mainly, many times before.
The riots in the large urban areas of England seem to be a distant memory for the person whose job it is to ensure there are sufficient resources to protect us, not to mention her boss. The police struggled then with around 70% the number of police than in, for instance, France, and massively less resourced for public order. In five years that number will be down to around 2/3rds the number of police officers that was proved to be insufficient in the areas where the riots took place.
Sleep safely in your beds tonight and be thankful there there are a few PCSOs around trying to do the job that trained police officers struggled with, but with no back up, no training and no resources.
Someone called them plastic on here. That's a great description of May, bending every direction to prove how great a replacement for Cameron she would be.
The concern is that the public will respond to current events when voting time comes. Cameron says he will not lead the tories into the next election. If he changes his mind then there will be eruptions. If he does stick by what he said, there will be eruptions. The economy is on a knife edge and imagine the response to a series of riots where the army has to assist the police.
May used the nasty little trick of quoting out of context at the annual Federation meeting. Very brave as the rank and file has no means of responding. They are tied by regulations and have unsympathetic media. Now the bosses, the old ACPO, have different regulations, hardly any in comparison, and if it all goes wrong then they, at least those in the big conurbations, are unlikely to follow the federated ranks' response, or lack of, as they don't have to. They will tell all.
It would appear that the only possible opposition to the tories has lurched to the left. If we drop back into another recession, the electorate might well accept the reason it is in tatters if the rest of the world is suffering. But let's say May becomes the PM. If our cities and flames, and the warnings given to her (to Cameron in actuality but who cares?) are published, out of context probably but sauce for the goose and all that, then many might feel more than a little aggrieved.
I watched the televised debate. That Corbyn has a presence. He's dangerous. He's easy to underestimate I think.
The policing in this country has always been well under the rate of, for instance, Germany and France - especially France, despite similar problems. By 2020, using the government's own figures, so things will obviously be much worse, there will have been a 40% cut in funding. Given such restrictions as PFI that were forced on forces, where meaningful cuts are all but impossible, the actual figure for cuts on the operational establishment is much higher.
We should be thankful there are PCSOs willing to patrol estates. Not my idea of a fun life. I had a fridge dropped on me in one estate when chasing suspects. Their allowance for deflection was a bit off and it missed by a few yards, but it was far from reassuring.
I'm glad I don't live in one of the major conurbations. Best of luck, guys.
Edited by Derek Smith on Saturday 5th September 12:22
untakenname said:
This could easily be resolved by jailing those who are running around in emergency vehicles they aren't entitled to for either tax evasion or impersonating a Police officer and then sending the cars up north to officers that actually need them.
While it does seem an odd situation , it has to be remembered that blue lights and sirens are not legally required to avail oneself of emergency response exemptions , and even where available there are circumstances when they are purposefully not used .HantsRat said:
What a non story.
Firstly most forces have vehicles for neighbourhood teams without sirens. Hampshire certainly have Fiesta's that are issued to the local neighbourhood team.
These do not have sirens as they are not used for response work. But obviously if an urgent call came in and you were nearest, you would still go.... At the speed limit.
As for non response trained drivers using response vehicles, this also happens a lot. Special Constables are not trained to respond, neither are PCSO's, Staff vehicle technicians, Speed camera operators etc. All these staff sometimes have to use a response vehicle. It is also cheaper for the tax payer if a police vehicle is used instead of using your own vehicle then claiming the mileage.
If I have to go to a meeting in the North of the county, I am encouraged to book out a police owned vehicle rather than using my own as it is cheaper than claiming back the mileage.
Whether it's used for response work or not, if it's liveried with blues, it should have sirens.Firstly most forces have vehicles for neighbourhood teams without sirens. Hampshire certainly have Fiesta's that are issued to the local neighbourhood team.
These do not have sirens as they are not used for response work. But obviously if an urgent call came in and you were nearest, you would still go.... At the speed limit.
As for non response trained drivers using response vehicles, this also happens a lot. Special Constables are not trained to respond, neither are PCSO's, Staff vehicle technicians, Speed camera operators etc. All these staff sometimes have to use a response vehicle. It is also cheaper for the tax payer if a police vehicle is used instead of using your own vehicle then claiming the mileage.
If I have to go to a meeting in the North of the county, I am encouraged to book out a police owned vehicle rather than using my own as it is cheaper than claiming back the mileage.
Edited by HantsRat on Friday 4th September 10:04
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