Advice on dispute with a private school please

[JustinP1]

ClaphamGT3 said:

What neither we nor Justin can know is whether he got the result he did because of an unassailable legal argument or because the bursar took a pragmatic business decision that life was too short to get into a time consuming dispute over a trivial amount of money

We won't.

However, either way, what we do know it worked, and it saved £6000.


What we also know if not even trying - and by that I mean not even bothering to have a look at the contract before advising that the OP forks you £3000 plus a punitive rate of interest will mean he definitely loses a large amount of money.

I've never said he should fight it. I've never said he should go to a hearing. I am saying that the contract needs to be seen, there may be a get out, and there may be a position where he can negotiate off a grand or two.

I'd rather try that than blindly tell the OP to pay up.

[anonymous-user]

The OP has told us that the contract says a term's notice. A term's notice means a term's notice. At work, I am often rung up by someone who says "contract says X, question is Y" and I say "answer is Z". If I cannot answer without seeing the documents, I say so, but to the very simple question "is a contract with a school requiring a term's notice to terminate the contract enforceable" I will venture the answer yes, and do not propose to spend 27 days and write a 50 page analysis of the contract. Are you the soul of Zeeky reincarnated?

[Sheepshanks]

ORD said:

No victory, pyrhhic or otherwise - it is usually a very bad idea to engage in litigation unless you have a strong case or loads and loads of money.

This would be a small claims issue so no significant costs and, as the outcomes at that level can sometimes seem close to random, it's worth (if you feel hard done by) letting it go that far.

[ORD]

Sheepshanks said:

ORD said:

No victory, pyrhhic or otherwise - it is usually a very bad idea to engage in litigation unless you have a strong case or loads and loads of money.

This would be a small claims issue so no significant costs and, as the outcomes at that level can sometimes seem close to random, it's worth (if you feel hard done by) letting it go that far.

I understand this sentiment, but even very low level judges can be expected to apply the clear terms of a contract unless they are presented with a strong case that those terms are unenforceable.

=

[JustinP1]

Breadvan72 said:

The OP has told us that the contract says a term's notice. Are you the soul of Zeeky reincarnated?

Breadvan, is it not possible for you to use this forum without making personal insults?

I'm off to play golf, as it's my birthday, so won't be here to respond to your next one.

I suggest before the OP simply "pays up" three grand plus hundreds of pounds of punitive interest, he shows the contract to someone, tells them how much notice he gave, and gets some proper advice.

It's inconvenient that I mentioned to analyse the contract before telling someone to spend three grand and it's inconvenient that two legal professionals have said that the OP too.

Lay off the personal insults though.

[DonkeyApple]

R2FU said:

Hi, hoping someone suitably qualified out there can guide me. To summarise a long story - when my daughter was starting school we applied for a place at our preferred local state school but weren't sure of being in the catchment area so as a fallback applied to the local private school. The private school offered my daughter a place which we accepted and paid a deposit, in full knowledge that if we got the place we wanted at the state school we'd lose the deposit we'd paid with the private school. No argument with that, that was the price of hedging our bets. Bottom line, we got a place at the state school and I wrote off the deposit with the private school. All good.

Except it wasn't! In accepting the place at the private school I didn't pay enough attention to the many pages of detailed terms and conditions and missed letting them know in the required timescales (one term's notice) that my daughter wouldn't be attending. So they are now coming after me for the balance of a term's fees, plus interest at 1.5% per month. Which is what is stated in their Ts & Cs that without really paying proper attention I signed up to up-front.

I fully accept I'm not squeaky clean here - I did miss the date they had set and they tell me the place did not subsequently get filled that term (no reason to think they'd go to the trouble of lying about that). So I'm prepared to come to some arrangement.

But my questions are these:

Is it correct that regardless of what of what their terms and conditions say, they are only entitled to seek to recover actual costs they've incurred?
If so does a full terms fees for educational services we did not receive plus a punitive rate of interest reflect their real costs or are we into the realms of them looking to levy a penalty, which I'm told they are not legally entitled to do?

As it stands I have been served with a claim by the school's solicitors and things are currently on track to go to small claims court unless I work something out.

Basically, I'm not blameless here, and as you can hopefully see I am looking to reach some compromise (even if it is just them waiving the several hundred pounds of interest they're claiming) and am trying to find an angle to come from.

Thanks in advance for any help or guidance anyone can offer as to how I can approach this.

Did you inform the private school, in writing, that you would not be accepting the place within a day or two of being informed by the local authority that your child had been awarded a place at the State school?

Did the contract from the private school set a notification date that was in advance of the known date that the Local Authority would be informing parents of their allocations?

The reason that I asknis that private schools know all too well that this is what parents do and this is exactly why all private schools now have non refundable deposits and exactly why these deposits have risen sharply in the last decade. Your deposit is their admin fee.

I am well aware that some schools will deliberately set their notification date ahead of the Local Authority specifically to trigger the event that you now find yourself in.

We had our child down for four local private schools and waited to make our final decision 24 hours after recieving notification from the Local Authority re the State school place. One of those private schools tried to charge a terms fees and was dealt with bluntly and was never heard from again.

If however, you left an unreasonable time to inform them then I would feel that if they can show that they have been unable to fill that place then I would be obliged to pay. But if they had filled that place then I would catagorically not be paying.

[Rude-boy]

SiH said:

Breadvan72 said:

The claim is not for "costs", but for the loss that the school has incurred. The school's running costs will not be reduced by the absence of one pupil, and so a term's fees are a reasonable estimate of the loss incurred. It is standard for a private school to stipulate for a term's notice to terminate the contract. You are bang to rights, OP. Pay up.

OP, PistonHeads has a membership list which seemingly extends into the bajillions and yet I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of members whose advice I would accept (almost entirely) without question. BV72 is absolutely on that list as he knows his onions and will give a measured response in a clear manner. If I were in your shoes I would be inclined to follow his advice to pay up and be done with the matter rather than fight out a likely futile and protracted battle.

Although IANAL and this is just the internet where it would appear that anything goes I would bet the farm on advice being (freely) given by BV72 as being correct and the ultimate outcome being aligned to what he says.

Edited to say that I fully appreciate that the OP has been round these parts longer than me and so has probably met PetrolTed and also knows what was down those Nazi tunnels but I'm also exercising my internet ordained right to pontificate on matters in which I have absolutely no expertise...

Edited by SiH on Thursday 17th September 17:01

FWIW I know who BV is in 'real life' and would absolutely 100% take his advice on legal matters when offered. I would also look at Vaud's (for I think it was him) practical suggestion which could see OP less out of pocket than he could otherwise legally be - make sure if this route is followed though that it is properly documented that the school are happy that there is no further liability under the contract with them.

[Sheepshanks]

DonkeyApple said:

I am well aware that some schools will deliberately set their notification date ahead of the Local Authority specifically to trigger the event that you now find yourself in.

It's going to be tight some years as the admission confirmation date is mid-April and Easter moves around. Indeed next year, schools (State at least) will be back for Summer term a week before the admissions announcement date.

[anonymous-user]

Breadvan72 said:

More grumpy, but not that old. More goggly eyed loony as well. Cars all rusty Brit stheaps.

CHAMBERS UK 2015 said:

Never seen a better advocate - he works the judge well, is exceptionally intelligent and fights with passion.

Ooh err!

[Sheepshanks]

Is that him? I thought it was a picture of Ed Balls.

[Vaud]

Rude-boy said:

FWIW I know who BV is in 'real life' and would absolutely 100% take his advice on legal matters when offered. I would also look at Vaud's (for I think it was him) practical suggestion which could see OP less out of pocket than he could otherwise legally be - make sure if this route is followed though that it is properly documented that the school are happy that there is no further liability under the contract with them.

I think it might work as well - the school can show an increase in "charitable donations". Even if they only come back with a slight reduction but accept via donation - then they will be net better off, as will the OP.

[Vaud]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

BV posted it himself... you are allowed to post pictures of yourself.

[zarjaz1991]

Rude-boy said:

FWIW I know who BV is in 'real life' and would absolutely 100% take his advice on legal matters when offered.

I don't know who he is in real life, other than the fact that he is a barrister, but would also easily take anything he posts on this forum as being as close to the gospel truth as it's possible to get in legal circles.

Everything he says in every post makes perfect sense to anyone with a modicum of intelligence. Obviously, it isn't always what people "want to hear" but that is common to every profession (I get the same problem working in IT).

I'm a particular fan of the down to earth way he cuts through the "pub lawyeradvice " stuff, much of which even a lay person like myself can see would get people into quite something of a mess if followed.

[agtlaw]

Stunning photo.

[Durzel]

agtlaw said:

Stunning photo.

How horrendously politically incorrect

[Jasandjules]

Quick question as I don't know about school dates.

What is the last date the OP could have cancelled the contract to avoid the penalty clause?

[JustinP1]

Jasandjules said:

Quick question as I don't know about school dates.

What is the last date the OP could have cancelled the contract to avoid the penalty clause?

We don't know that, unfortunately, nor how much notice he actually gave.

I think the answer has already been decided though and the OP has been well and truly chased off by the vitriol he received and that anyone who actually tried to help him achieve the 'compromise' he was after were told that they know nothing.

Edited by JustinP1 on Saturday 19th September 12:38

[anonymous-user]

agtlaw said:

Stunning photo.

Get in!

I was told that LinkedIn is lawyertinder, but have been sadly disappointed thus far. A least now I have agtlaw's phone number. I hear that he knows a lot about:

- going fast and laying down rubber

- photographs showing fast action

- drink, drugs, and texting

Result!

[Vaud]

Breadvan72 said:

Result!

Yes. But Leeds.

You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.

[eccles]

JustinP1 said:

I think the answer has already been decided though and the OP has been well and truly chased off by the vitriol he received and that anyone who actually tried to help him achieve the 'compromise' he was after were told that they know nothing.

You're really not helping yourself here, you're coming accross as the grizzling kid left behind when all the other kids have gone off to play with someone else!

Edited by eccles on Saturday 19th September 16:04