Ebay Purchase - Buckled alloys

[Howard-]

AlexRS2782 said:

but given the amount of people on eBay nowadays determined to sell stuff which isn't as described, it's entirely possible the seller was aware of the damage

The thing is eBay are so happy to appease the buyer that there's literally no point in trying to con anyone as a seller. It's far too easy to raise a not as described case and get your money back - you literally just have to open the case and wait up to a couple of weeks. The funds get automatically put on hold in the seller's PayPal account (or it goes into the red if their account balance is £0) until it's resolved one way or another.

If you're selling something on eBay, it's in your best interests to describe every little defect. If someone then moans about a defect, you can say "lol read the description m8". However, if the buyer wants to inflict their own damage, or substitute your item for a damaged one, then you're fked. And that's why I hate eBay.

[MartyG1987]

kapiteinlangzaam said:

eBay will 99% side with you, failing that PayPal will, failing that if the PayPal purchase was funded by CC, you can chase it there too.

You will need some patience, and it will be a ballache, but you will get your money back eventually.

Paypal was funded by a credit card so fingers crossed.

Getting them checked at Wheel refurb place tomorrow so hopefully they can give me a note to say there is a problem, more evidence to submit to Ebay.

[silentbrown]

MartyG1987 said:

Getting them checked at Wheel refurb place tomorrow so hopefully they can give me a note to say there is a problem, more evidence to submit to Ebay.

Good luck with this, but I can see it might not go your way

Your only real option has to be claiming "Not as described", but you're then into disputing what "refurbished" means - Wheels can be straightened without being refurbed, and vice-versa. "Refurb" can just mean a quick coat of paint...

Personally I'd try and negotiate a partial refund with the seller to cover some of the cost of straightening.

http://www.lepsons.com/wheel-straightening/

Edited by silentbrown on Thursday 24th September 09:39

[gregs656]

silentbrown said:

Good luck with this, but I can see it might not go your way

Your only real option has to be claiming "Not as described", but you're then into disputing what "refurbished" means - Wheels can be straightened without being refurbed, and vice-versa. "Refurb" can just mean a quick coat of paint...

Personally I'd try and negotiate a partial refund with the seller to cover some of the cost of straightening.

http://www.lepsons.com/wheel-straightening/

Edited by silentbrown on Thursday 24th September 09:39

Ebay are quite clear in the definition of a used item that the item should be 'fully operational and functions as intended'

If the wheels were advertised as used, are buckled and therefore not fully operational - eBay will side with the buyer as the item was not accurately described.

see here from eBay condition descriptors: http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/sell/contextual/condi...

[silentbrown]

gregs656 said:

see here from eBay condition descriptors: http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/sell/contextual/condi...

Thanks. I wasn't aware of that. On that basis OP should have no problem.

Slightly better link here maybe. http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/sell/item-condition.h...

[MartyG1987]

gregs656 said:

Ebay are quite clear in the definition of a used item that the item should be 'fully operational and functions as intended'

If the wheels were advertised as used, are buckled and therefore not fully operational - eBay will side with the buyer as the item was not accurately described.

see here from eBay condition descriptors: http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/sell/contextual/condi...

Thanks gregs656, that link will be useful!

[griffter]

You can check a wheel (with no tyre) at home by rolling it along a flat, hard surface (Eg kitchen floor). Any flat spots will cause the wheel to wobble and not run straight.
If the wheel is twisted about the mounting face (probably but not necessarily flat spotted) you can see this on the kitchen floor as well because the wheel will be slightly oval.
You can also check this on the car by jacking it up and spinning the wheel
Some places can fix buckled wheels but whether the wheel is weakened or not, in my experience they're never quite right.
Good luck with the outcome. The risk of buying second hand wheels of course is no different to that of buying a second hand car. Ask me how I know...

[The Surveyor]

gregs656 said:

silentbrown said:

Good luck with this, but I can see it might not go your way

Your only real option has to be claiming "Not as described", but you're then into disputing what "refurbished" means - Wheels can be straightened without being refurbed, and vice-versa. "Refurb" can just mean a quick coat of paint...

Personally I'd try and negotiate a partial refund with the seller to cover some of the cost of straightening.

http://www.lepsons.com/wheel-straightening/

Edited by silentbrown on Thursday 24th September 09:39

Ebay are quite clear in the definition of a used item that the item should be 'fully operational and functions as intended'

If the wheels were advertised as used, are buckled and therefore not fully operational - eBay will side with the buyer as the item was not accurately described.

see here from eBay condition descriptors: http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/sell/contextual/condi...

It's noted previously and it's important to remember that it is not unusual for an alloy wheel to run slightly out or true. For example, my Tuscan spider alloys were not perfectly round or true when I had them refurbished and they remained perfectly operational and did function as intended. They just needed a little extra weight when balanced. It's not that simple to say that a wheel needs to be perfectly true and round to be fully operational IMHO.

[robinessex]

Vixpy1 said:

You would be suprised how much wheels these days are buckled. Especially the bigger audi and bmw wheels. most can be repaired by a decent refurber

I've said it many times, bent and buckled wheels are NOT SAFE if straightened. And I don't are how many times someone says he's done, and it's ok.

[robinessex]

julian64 said:

andburg said:

I'd not fancy buckled and bent back to shape wheels on my car, metal fatigue will make them brittle and liable to failure.

stick at it with ebay, finger crossed you get your money back.

I'd guess original seller whacked a speed bump hard, then decided to sell them on hoping he could get away with it.

Anything in the sellers ebay history?

edit:

if they were fine when he sent them they must have been damaged in transit which he arranged and will need to claim via the courier for the damage.

This is not actually true. If you bend a cold wheel back to shape I'd agree with you but you are assuming a wheel repairer just hits the wheel with a hammer.

Metal will fatigue if you bend it bac kand forth cold. However if you heat it sufficiently for the metal involved it will rejuvinated the metal back to pretty much brand new.

It will of course need a coat of paint after this.

ALUMINIUM WHEELS. NOT IT WON’T. WHAT IT WILL DO ANNEAL THE WHEEL, REDUCING ITS U.T.S. BY ABOUT 50%. IT NEEDS TO BE RE-HEAT TREATED TO RETURN IT TO IT'S ORIGINAL STRENGTH. ABOUT T5 OR T6 OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD.

[robinessex]

julian64 said:

Garybee said:

julian64 said:

This is not actually true. If you bend a cold wheel back to shape I'd agree with you but you are assuming a wheel repairer just hits the wheel with a hammer.

Metal will fatigue if you bend it bac kand forth cold. However if you heat it sufficiently for the metal involved it will rejuvinated the metal back to pretty much brand new.

It will of course need a coat of paint after this.

All you're going to achieve by doing that is to anneal the wheel, turning it into a supersoft paperweight. Please don't do this.

You're funny

You're not.

Heat sensitivity considerations

Often, the metal's sensitivity to heat must also be considered. Even a relatively routine workshop procedure involving heating is complicated by the fact that aluminium, unlike steel, will melt without first glowing red. Forming operations where a blow torch is used can reverse or remove heat treating, therefore is not advised whatsoever. No visual signs reveal how the material is internally damaged. Much like welding heat treated, high strength link chain, all strength is now lost by heat of the torch. The chain is dangerous and must be discarded.
Aluminium also is subject to internal stresses and strains when it is overheated; the tendency of the metal to creep under these stresses tends to result in delayed distortions. For example, the warping or cracking of overheated aluminium automobile cylinder heads is commonly observed, sometimes years later, as is the tendency of improperly welded aluminium bicycle frames to gradually twist out of alignment from the stresses of the welding process. Thus, the aerospace industry avoids heat altogether by joining parts with rivets of like metal composition, other fasteners, or adhesives. Stresses in overheated aluminium can be relieved by heat-treating the parts in an oven and gradually cooling it—in effect annealing the stresses. Yet these parts may still become distorted, so that heat-treating of welded bicycle frames, for instance, can result in a significant fraction becoming misaligned. If the misalignment is not too severe, the cooled parts may be bent into alignment. Of course, if the frame is properly designed for rigidity (see above), that bending will require enormous force.

[Garybee]

You're a more patient man than me. I have no interest in arguing with internet idiots so will tell them what they need to know and then when they (inevitably) fail to understand it I leave it at that. I suspect that any talk of changes in grain structure would be wasted on that one.

[julian64]

robinessex said:

julian64 said:

Garybee said:

julian64 said:

This is not actually true. If you bend a cold wheel back to shape I'd agree with you but you are assuming a wheel repairer just hits the wheel with a hammer.

Metal will fatigue if you bend it bac kand forth cold. However if you heat it sufficiently for the metal involved it will rejuvinated the metal back to pretty much brand new.

It will of course need a coat of paint after this.

All you're going to achieve by doing that is to anneal the wheel, turning it into a supersoft paperweight. Please don't do this.

You're funny

You're not.

Heat sensitivity considerations

Often, the metal's sensitivity to heat must also be considered. Even a relatively routine workshop procedure involving heating is complicated by the fact that aluminium, unlike steel, will melt without first glowing red. Forming operations where a blow torch is used can reverse or remove heat treating, therefore is not advised whatsoever. No visual signs reveal how the material is internally damaged. Much like welding heat treated, high strength link chain, all strength is now lost by heat of the torch. The chain is dangerous and must be discarded.
Aluminium also is subject to internal stresses and strains when it is overheated; the tendency of the metal to creep under these stresses tends to result in delayed distortions. For example, the warping or cracking of overheated aluminium automobile cylinder heads is commonly observed, sometimes years later, as is the tendency of improperly welded aluminium bicycle frames to gradually twist out of alignment from the stresses of the welding process. Thus, the aerospace industry avoids heat altogether by joining parts with rivets of like metal composition, other fasteners, or adhesives. Stresses in overheated aluminium can be relieved by heat-treating the parts in an oven and gradually cooling it—in effect annealing the stresses. Yet these parts may still become distorted, so that heat-treating of welded bicycle frames, for instance, can result in a significant fraction becoming misaligned. If the misalignment is not too severe, the cooled parts may be bent into alignment. Of course, if the frame is properly designed for rigidity (see above), that bending will require enormous force.

The bit you've picked out of google has nothing to do with stress relief treatment of a bent wheel. Just a suggestion but about instead of trying to google, go and stand in most wheel repair shops and see what goes on?

Aluminium and steel wheel repair sometimes requires hitting with a hammer, sometimes adding material. Neither of those are done with magic glue, and both of them are done applying heat.

So yes, you are both funny, but don't take my word for it you go tell the op that the only way to unbuckle his alloy is to throw it away and get a new one from the glue fairy.

I could go on to tell you how many times I've repaired car, or even tractor wheels with an aluminium welder, hammer, blow torch and file, but then I wouldn't want to give you nightmares.

Pistonheads, home of the hand wringers

[robinessex]

Well, I guess you and your hammer know more than my 50 years as a stress analyst in the aircraft industry then.

[julian64]

robinessex said:

Well, I guess you and your hammer know more than my 50 years as a stress analyst in the aircraft industry then.

Perhaps we should post a link to your other famous thread on welding and safety to show you are at least consistent in your 50 years of hand wringing. Then people can make their own minds up.

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

[robinessex]

Quite frankly, I couldn't give a fk what you or anyone else thinks. If people want to kill themselves due to ignorance, why should I be bothered.

http://www.dezent-wheels.com/24846_EN.0

http://archive.bodyshopmag.com/2014/features/wheel...

http://www.esabna.com/us/en/education/blog/is-ther...

http://www.teksidaluminum.com/pdf/20-1-1.pdf

http://www.ijsrp.org/research-paper-0614/ijsrp-p30...

http://www.tnmsc.cn/down/2014/07_en/31-p2214.pdf

The End

Edited by robinessex on Tuesday 29th September 18:02

[MartyG1987]

Thanks for the advice everyone.

Wheels returned and a full refunded received.