Child benefit/CSA over 18 years old.

Child benefit/CSA over 18 years old.

Author
Discussion

JumboBeef

Original Poster:

3,772 posts

176 months

Wednesday 30th September 2015
quotequote all
Hello.

I have had a shouty phone call with someone about my daughter and I have a horrible feeling I'm in the wrong.

Background: for 15 years I have have been paying for my daughter via The CSA. In this time she went to school (until 16) and then college (until July this year, aged 18).

I have had a lot of problems with the ex in this time. I have had to stamp my feet a lot with the schools to make sure I was included in my daughter's education. Schools don't understand parental responsibility so I have had a very difficult time over a long period.

For the last two years my daughter has stated that she was only going to do two years at college, and then definitely leave. About five months ago, she stopped communicating with me in any way, saying to her grandfather that she wasn't receiving texts/calls/whatsapps/emails from me. Clearly excuses. She has stopped communications before, and I know she gets a lot of pressure/grief from her mother about staying in touch with me. Granddad has tried to be a mediator, and she has stopped replying to him, which has hurt him a lot (particularly as my mother died earlier this year).

My last CSA payment was meant to be early September this year. However, now the CSA are saying that I need to continue to pay until at least March next year as Child Benefit is also going to be paid until that time.

The only reason CB could continue to be paid would be if she went back to college, something she previously told me she was definitely not going to do.

The CSA only say I have to pay as CB is being paid. CB flatly refuse to talk to me. I rang the college and asked if she was on a course there, and they refused to tell me. I talked about parenteral responsibility and that I have the right to know (and this is where I think I'm wrong as she is now over 18).

I accept I will have to pay if she is back at college. However, how I can find proof that she is back there (or anywhere else for that matter?) to prove CB is being paid correctly? The CSA have said they will only "attempt" to recover the thousands of pounds I will have to pay over the coming months if it is discovered that I shouldn't have been paying. They are too damn quick to come after me for money, but will only "attempt" to recover money from her.

Thanks in advance.

The Surveyor

7,576 posts

236 months

Wednesday 30th September 2015
quotequote all
Firstly, my advise would be to take a step back and calm yourself down. Getting shouty at the College, the CMS, or the CB people will get you know where, and any frustration that gets back to your daughter will just open up the divide further.

Surly your priority is to regain contact, and build the relationship with your (now adult) daughter rather than griping over a few months worth of payments? Focus on that and you will get the answers to the other questions without going behind their backs.

The rules of the CMS are quite straightforward:-

"Child maintenance is for children who are either:
under 16
under 20 and in full-time education (but not higher than A Level or equivalent)
under 20 and living with a parent who has registered for Child Benefit for them"

So if your daughter is still attending college completing / re-taking her A levels / NVQ's etc then you may be paying until she's 20.

Good luck with this OP



andburg

7,214 posts

168 months

Wednesday 30th September 2015
quotequote all
communication is the only way really.

IANAL
I'd try request your daughter or the mother to provide you with a copy of her enrolment paperwork saying that without this you will not be required to make payments but continue to put the money aside incase the CSA come knocking. Hopefully the though of not receiving the payment will get them to give you confirmation 1 way or the other.

I would anticipate the money could be taken from you without them having to take you to court and prove that she is enrolled and attending college.


JumboBeef

Original Poster:

3,772 posts

176 months

Wednesday 30th September 2015
quotequote all
The Surveyor said:
Firstly, my advise would be to take a step back and calm yourself down. Getting shouty at the College, the CMS, or the CB people will get you know where, and any frustration that gets back to your daughter will just open up the divide further.

Surly your priority is to regain contact, and build the relationship with your (now adult) daughter rather than griping over a few months worth of payments? Focus on that and you will get the answers to the other questions without going behind their backs.

The rules of the CMS are quite straightforward:-

"Child maintenance is for children who are either:
under 16
under 20 and in full-time education (but not higher than A Level or equivalent)
under 20 and living with a parent who has registered for Child Benefit for them"

So if your daughter is still attending college completing / re-taking her A levels / NVQ's etc then you may be paying until she's 20.

Good luck with this OP
I'm not proud of being shouty. However, after 15 years of contact and financial hell and thinking it was finally all over, I lost my cool. I've paid over £50,000 to a dead beat mother over those years, and only a small amount has ever made it to my daughter.

Of course I've tried to restart contact (yet again) but with no success.

It's not just a few months of payment, she/her mother could string this out for another two years, that's nearly eight grand. Would you be as happy just to hand that over with no proof or even questioning why your child is still stuck at college doing a course for 16 and 17 years olds when she's 18/19/20 and wants to travel?

TwigtheWonderkid

43,248 posts

149 months

Wednesday 30th September 2015
quotequote all
JumboBeef said:
I'm not proud of being shouty. However, after 15 years of contact and financial hell and thinking it was finally all over, I lost my cool. I've paid over £50,000 to a dead beat mother over those years, and only a small amount has ever made it to my daughter.
During those years your ex must have had to pay the bills, rent/mortgage, electric, water, food etc, all of which would have benefitted your daughter. She had income (including your money) and had outgoings. So not sure how you can say what amount went to your daughter.

As regards the situation now, can you not refuse to pay until you get proof of the situation, but put the money aside so it's ready to be paid if it's correctly owed.

JumboBeef

Original Poster:

3,772 posts

176 months

Wednesday 30th September 2015
quotequote all
andburg said:
communication is the only way really.

IANAL
I'd try request your daughter or the mother to provide you with a copy of her enrolment paperwork saying that without this you will not be required to make payments but continue to put the money aside incase the CSA come knocking. Hopefully the though of not receiving the payment will get them to give you confirmation 1 way or the other.

I would anticipate the money could be taken from you without them having to take you to court and prove that she is enrolled and attending college.
My daughter is not currently communicating with either me or the rest of her family on my side, so that's out.

The mother would never, ever talk to me. Ever.

You cannot withhold payment from the wonderful CSA. They will just deduct it from your salary. They are not interested in reasons.

Computer says fathers must pay, even if the mother has lied (had that), not answered questions/letters/calls from them (had that too) or if they (The CSA) makes a mistake (had that too, had to undertake two appeals in my time).

Bottom line: fathers always in the wrong and must pay, mothers have sun shining out of their arses and are always the innocent party. Always.

Thanks for the replies, but does anyone know if I can force the college to talk to me?

As stated, I might have to pay thousands and the CSA are not guaranteeing to get my money back if the mother is found to be lying.

PurpleMoonlight

22,362 posts

156 months

Wednesday 30th September 2015
quotequote all
I would have thought that the CB people would undertake some checks to make sure the continuing claim is legitimate. So if they are satisfied then you have little choice in the matter.

You never know, you may get your 6 months closure letter from the CSA soon. Then the fun will start of your ex having to arrange direct with you.

JumboBeef

Original Poster:

3,772 posts

176 months

Wednesday 30th September 2015
quotequote all
TwigtheWonderkid said:
During those years your ex must have had to pay the bills, rent/mortgage, electric, water, food etc, all of which would have benefitted your daughter. She had income (including your money) and had outgoings. So not sure how you can say what amount went to your daughter.
I spoke to my daughter about two years ago, when she was 16. We had a heart to heart. I had never involved her in the money side as she was a child (before she grew up).

However, when I asked her if there was anything she wanted to talk about, one of the things was that her mother had told her from an early age (she wasn't worried about involving a child in divorce and finances) that I'd never paid a penny. Ever.

I showed her all the CSA statements showing the thousands paid (she wanted to see them) and we talked about money.

We worked out between us that some of the money went on her via housing, foods, bills etc but about £2,500 per year was not seen either directly or indirectly by my daughter and went straight to her mother to spend on herself.

I know not all divorced mothers are like this but my ex has had well over £30,000 from me via The CSA over the years just to spend on herself.

This might show, just a little bit, why I do not want to fund my ex's lifestyle just for the hell of it and I'm not about to just believe her and continue to pay unless I really have to.

TwigtheWonderkid

43,248 posts

149 months

Wednesday 30th September 2015
quotequote all
JumboBeef said:
Bottom line: fathers always in the wrong and must pay, mothers have sun shining out of their arses and are always the innocent party. Always.
If the father had custody, would the CSA treat the mother who was in full time employment any differently?

JumboBeef

Original Poster:

3,772 posts

176 months

Wednesday 30th September 2015
quotequote all
PurpleMoonlight said:
I would have thought that the CB people would undertake some checks to make sure the continuing claim is legitimate. So if they are satisfied then you have little choice in the matter.
The CSA and CB have both told me that it is my responsibility to check if CB is being paid correctly if I have any doubts.......

Yet no one will talk to me.

You couldn't make it up.

JumboBeef

Original Poster:

3,772 posts

176 months

Wednesday 30th September 2015
quotequote all
TwigtheWonderkid said:
JumboBeef said:
Bottom line: fathers always in the wrong and must pay, mothers have sun shining out of their arses and are always the innocent party. Always.
If the father had custody, would the CSA treat the mother who was in full time employment any differently?
Yes. The father is always wrong. They will pursue an absent father to the ends of the world but they frankly don't care when a mother goes awol. I have a friend who's has the children and the mother left. She is in work but never pays and The CSA don't care.

PurpleMoonlight

22,362 posts

156 months

Wednesday 30th September 2015
quotequote all
JumboBeef said:
Yes. The father is always wrong. They will pursue an absent father to the ends of the world but they frankly don't care when a mother goes awol. I have a friend who's has the children and the mother left. She is in work but never pays and The CSA don't care.
They never got the positive publicity pursuing errant mothers.

Kaelic

2,684 posts

200 months

Wednesday 30th September 2015
quotequote all
Similar situation to you mate but with a much younger child (14) who has "chosen" to have no contact with my side of the family and myself, she has been told I have not paid a penny to her or her mother and all sorts of accusations thrown at me.

In the eyes of everyone I am in the wrong!

Even got a criminal record for emailing her mother 30 times over an 8 month period asking and begging for contact to be re-established. Police/CPS couldnt wait to get an easy conviction. I truely walked into it and spent a fortune on solicitors who were certain it was a stitch up.

I ended up taking it through the family courts to try and get contact with my daughter and after CAFCASS proved the mother was being obstructive and lying about stuff to my daughter, the judge said "I wish I would wave a magic wand and fix this" and did the sum total of fk all against my ex....... So now my daughter has no contact with myself or anyone in the family, despite people begging to see her. She is quick enough to take the presents and spend gift vouchers but not say thank you to those who love her and are missing her so badly.

end result is I know nothing of what is happening in my 14year old daughters life! Except that she is in an intimate relationship with a 17 year old and her mother is allowing her to go on holiday with him in the October half term..........If I say anything to the police/cafcass etc I will be the bad one yet again!!

TwigtheWonderkid

43,248 posts

149 months

Wednesday 30th September 2015
quotequote all
PurpleMoonlight said:
JumboBeef said:
Yes. The father is always wrong. They will pursue an absent father to the ends of the world but they frankly don't care when a mother goes awol. I have a friend who's has the children and the mother left. She is in work but never pays and The CSA don't care.
They never got the positive publicity pursuing errant mothers.
If true, that's outrageous.

Rangeroverover

1,522 posts

110 months

Wednesday 30th September 2015
quotequote all
[quote=JumboBeef]

I'm not proud of being shouty. However, after 15 years of contact and financial hell and thinking it was finally all over, I lost my cool. I've paid over £50,000 to a dead beat mother over those years, and only a small amount has ever made it to my daughter.

You've only been paying £65 per week, either just keep paying it, or as she is over 18 see if you can get it paid direct to your daughter.

I know how frustrating the "computer says no" or "can't tell you, data protection innit" answers can be, getting shouty will always make you come off badly. Try an approach to CSA saying you are concerned that this may be a fraudulent claim and you would like them to seek proof that she is in qualifying education.

If all else fails
Ask the College for a reference........suggest she is applying for a part time job and you are the prospective employer, they may tell you something

JumboBeef

Original Poster:

3,772 posts

176 months

Wednesday 30th September 2015
quotequote all
Rangeroverover said:
You've only been paying £65 per week, either just keep paying it


If I send you my bank details, would you mind sending me £65 for the next two years for no reason? wink

Rangeroverover said:
or as she is over 18 see if you can get it paid direct to your daughter.
Tried many times to pay my daughter direct (this is what she wanted also). The CSA state the mother must be in agreement. That is never going to happen. This is her wine supply we are talking about here!!

Rangeroverover said:
I know how frustrating the "computer says no" or "can't tell you, data protection innit" answers can be, getting shouty will always make you come off badly. Try an approach to CSA saying you are concerned that this may be a fraudulent claim and you would like them to seek proof that she is in qualifying education.
That is exactly what I have done. Only to be told it is up to me to prove that she is not at college. I have to prove this, with the college and CB refusing to talk to me. How exactly can I prove or disprove?

Rangeroverover said:
If all else fails
Ask the College for a reference........suggest she is applying for a part time job and you are the prospective employer, they may tell you something
Interesting idea, to a point. I'll have a think about that (but can't see how it would work, plus they could well ask her about it before talking to me.....)

ZOLLAR

19,908 posts

172 months

Wednesday 30th September 2015
quotequote all
Rangeroverover]umboBeef said:
I'm not proud of being shouty. However, after 15 years of contact and financial hell and thinking it was finally all over, I lost my cool. I've paid over £50,000 to a dead beat mother over those years, and only a small amount has ever made it to my daughter.

You've only been paying £65 per week, either just keep paying it, or as she is over 18 see if you can get it paid direct to your daughter.

I know how frustrating the "computer says no" or "can't tell you, data protection innit" answers can be, getting shouty will always make you come off badly. Try an approach to CSA saying you are concerned that this may be a fraudulent claim and you would like them to seek proof that she is in qualifying education.

If all else fails
Ask the College for a reference........suggest she is applying for a part time job and you are the prospective employer, they may tell you something
Very much this, I'll probably be in a similar position in 15 years or so when my two have grown.
Thankfully my background is fraud and I'd be putting them under intense pressure to make sure they aren't being complacent.

Can't really add much more OP but you're not alone when it comes to the CSA they've screwed a lot of fathers.

JumboBeef

Original Poster:

3,772 posts

176 months

Wednesday 30th September 2015
quotequote all
Kaelic said:
Similar situation to you mate but with a much younger child (14) who has "chosen" to have no contact with my side of the family and myself, she has been told I have not paid a penny to her or her mother and all sorts of accusations thrown at me.

In the eyes of everyone I am in the wrong!

Even got a criminal record for emailing her mother 30 times over an 8 month period asking and begging for contact to be re-established. Police/CPS couldnt wait to get an easy conviction. I truely walked into it and spent a fortune on solicitors who were certain it was a stitch up.

I ended up taking it through the family courts to try and get contact with my daughter and after CAFCASS proved the mother was being obstructive and lying about stuff to my daughter, the judge said "I wish I would wave a magic wand and fix this" and did the sum total of fk all against my ex....... So now my daughter has no contact with myself or anyone in the family, despite people begging to see her. She is quick enough to take the presents and spend gift vouchers but not say thank you to those who love her and are missing her so badly.

end result is I know nothing of what is happening in my 14year old daughters life! Except that she is in an intimate relationship with a 17 year old and her mother is allowing her to go on holiday with him in the October half term..........If I say anything to the police/cafcass etc I will be the bad one yet again!!
Very very similar situation. Sympathy from me.

How about we dress up as Batman and Robin and climb London bridge? (for all the good that does.....)

Retroman

961 posts

132 months

Wednesday 30th September 2015
quotequote all
I've never understood why people at 18 who are still in full time education were entitled to child benefit. Or their mother / father i should say.

photosnob

1,339 posts

117 months

Wednesday 30th September 2015
quotequote all
Can't you just call her college and say there is an emergency and you need to speak to her... Some family emergency.

You will soon find out if she is there.

(I need to speak to my daughter as her grandmother is seriously ill in hospital. I've tried her mobile and think she could be in lessons, it's important.)

Morally it's questionable. But it's a simple way.