Merseyside policeman struck and killed by stolen vehicle.

[rambo19]

Won't be a murder charge(sadly).

[TheBear]

over_the_hill said:

Greendubber said:

Great news on the arrests

Indeed it is.

However, how many times have we seen the sensationalist headlines - "Police Treating as Murder", "Will be charging with murder"
Only for it to be later downgraded to careless driving and manslaughter or some such.

I can't help feeling that this does little for the grieving families who no doubt hope for justice, only to see it apparently watered down.

Police can't be responsible for newspapers writing whatever headlines they want.

You are always going to arrest on suspicion of the most serous offence that it could be based on the circumstances.

It is perfectly reasonable that if the initial suspicion or evidence points towards the offender deliberately driving at a person and killing them then an arrest for murder is inevitable and justifiable.

Imagine the outcry if it was a lesser offence arrested for. What does that say to victims or the public? That the police are just looking for a lazy lower conviction from the outset and can't be bothered to fight for it?

It will be very difficult to prove that unless the circumstances are overwhelmingly in the prosecutions favour.

Also a persons actual intentions at the time of an incident and their subsequent stated intentions in interview following legal advice will quite often be very different and will make it impossible to prove a higher offence.

[FurryExocet]

recycled said:

Would it not be safer to deploy it from the front of a parked police car. At least you have the cushion of the car if the thief tries to ram the officer. Still Dangerous either way

The only vehicle you would consider using, would be an HGV, as a regular vehicle hitting that, isn't really going to move it, but if you hit say a police car, it will shunt it quite a distance and kill or seriously injure anyone in front.
I've only deployed stinger once, I used a wall for cover and threw it out, even I was criticised for my choice of location, as I had to appear for a split second on offer to the subject, in order to throw it.

However when the adrenaline is pumping and you want to catch the person, we sometimes do things that may cause us serious injury or death, without thinking it through properly, sadly in this instance, the worst case scenario played out and the officer was killed.

[Willy Nilly]

No Bend said:

Willy Nilly said:

Baryonyx said:

Mr GrimNasty said:

Very sad etc. but please lets not go through the dangerous job, constantly laying their life on the line, rubbish again.

Policing is a pretty safe job, way down the list of dangerous occupations.

Ha, you must be joking. I'm guessing you missed the part where he was murdered whilst doing his job?

Perhaps your car will be stolen, would you rather the police did nothing to get it back if they had the chance to? We're lucky to have braver sorts than you looking after us, at least.

Go and do some research on dangerous jobs and have a look where being a police officer is. My job is in the Champions League every year

That may be the case, but do people actively seek you out to cause you harm? Is it your job to run towards dangerous situations rather than run away?

Regardless of whether people set out to cause me and people in my line of work harm, our job is much more likely to kill us than a police officers job. Working alone, working with chemicals, working in remote places, working with machines, working in difficult to control environments, working with dangerous and unpredictable animals, working in dust, working at height.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/foi/fatalities/2015-16.htm No policemen here

http://www.hse.gov.uk/foi/fatalities/2014-15.htm or here

[BOF]

Maybe I've missed it...but is there somewhere to make a small donation to his wife and kids?

BOF

[Bigends]

FurryExocet said:

recycled said:

Would it not be safer to deploy it from the front of a parked police car. At least you have the cushion of the car if the thief tries to ram the officer. Still Dangerous either way

The only vehicle you would consider using, would be an HGV, as a regular vehicle hitting that, isn't really going to move it, but if you hit say a police car, it will shunt it quite a distance and kill or seriously injure anyone in front.
I've only deployed stinger once, I used a wall for cover and threw it out, even I was criticised for my choice of location, as I had to appear for a split second on offer to the subject, in order to throw it.

However when the adrenaline is pumping and you want to catch the person, we sometimes do things that may cause us serious injury or death, without thinking it through properly, sadly in this instance, the worst case scenario played out and the officer was killed.

Training is to deploy from behind a solid object or sheltered by a vehicle. Hed have been very vulnerable on that unprotected central reservation but would have been under some personal pressure to attempt to disable the car, having reported his position and readiness to deploy the stop stick. If he hadnt done something and the stolen car went on to kill someone then hed have been asked some searching questions during any subsequent enquiry though would clearly have been able to justify his actions - he couldnt really win - that said -that unprotected central reservation was NO place to be with a stolen vehicle hurtling down towards him. Awful consequences for him and his family

Edited by Bigends on Tuesday 6th October 18:43

[Wacky Racer]

Regarding the "stop stick"/Stinger....

Why can't someone design a "gun" or "machine" that fires this thing across the road from a fair distance?, so the officer isn't left vulnerable standing by the roadside with a car speeding towards him/her at warp speed.

[Baryonyx]

Willy Nilly said:

Regardless of whether people set out to cause me and people in my line of work harm, our job is much more likely to kill us than a police officers job. Working alone, working with chemicals, working in remote places, working with machines, working in difficult to control environments, working with dangerous and unpredictable animals, working in dust, working at height.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/foi/fatalities/2015-16.htm No policemen here

http://www.hse.gov.uk/foi/fatalities/2014-15.htm or here

I'm not sure what point you're trying to prove here? A few papercuts or strained backs carrying toner cartridges round the office might put you high on the H&S hitlist, but this pathetic bragging only serves to cheapen the fact that a good bloke died on a day that probably started much like any other, a bloke who was probably looking forward to going home to his family. Take your hard-done-by nonsense elsewhere.

The arrests are good news, I await news of a charge with anticipation.

[Greendubber]

Starfighter said:

Great news on the arrests, I await the trial verdict.

Surely some of the incident examination will be able to show any deviation in course, attempts to break etc. that should support a murder charge. There may not have been an intent / premeditation to kill but sure some level of recklessness could be shown. A manslaughter conviction would still allow a life sentence based on circumstances.

I'd like to think if ots being chased then it'd have been by a traffic car and on video. Lets also no forget witness accounts of officers following, it might have been a blatant attempt to hit the officers.

With only press reprorts to rely on we can only wait until trial.

[Greendubber]

BOF said:

Maybe I've missed it...but is there somewhere to make a small donation to his wife and kids?

BOF

Have a look at COPS, care of police survivors and there's something on there.

Actually... Merseyside Police Federation are running it

Edited by Greendubber on Tuesday 6th October 19:19

[IrateNinja]

Willy Nilly said:

Regardless of whether people set out to cause me and people in my line of work harm, our job is much more likely to kill us than a police officers job. Working alone, working with chemicals, working in remote places, working with machines, working in difficult to control environments, working with dangerous and unpredictable animals, working in dust, working at height.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/foi/fatalities/2015-16.htm No policemen here

http://www.hse.gov.uk/foi/fatalities/2014-15.htm or here

I'm not really sure what you're trying to achieve here. I/we get it, you have a dangerous job. However this is a thread about a man who was killed doing his, surely a matter of respect to not willy wave about how brave you are doing yours?

[anonymous-user]

Willy Nilly said:

Regardless of whether people set out to cause me and people in my line of work harm, our job is much more likely to kill us than a police officers job. Working alone, working with chemicals, working in remote places, working with machines, working in difficult to control environments, working with dangerous and unpredictable animals, working in dust, working at height.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/foi/fatalities/2015-16.htm No policemen here

http://www.hse.gov.uk/foi/fatalities/2014-15.htm or here

If you define danger by fatalities, then, as I've written previously, being an estate agent is more dangerous than being a police officer. Given that, do you really think such a narrow definition appropriately covers "danger"?

You're judging danger by an outcome. How do you know the risks and threats aren't better managed by the police compared to other industries? The 'danger' could still be present in great 'quantities', but perhaps it's recognised and managed better before it leads to a bad outcome.

It's only sensible to have a wider definition of danger for injuries, risks and also the psychological harm. Every time you go to arrest someone who has previously assaulted an officer it adds strains and stresses as it causes lots of 'what if' thinking which is active and mentally taxing.

I don't think I'm making too much of an assumption that when a builder is tasked to build a wall he's not thinking, "That brick has been known to attack builders before. I wonder if it'll attack me".

[Rovinghawk]

IrateNinja said:

However this is a thread about a man who was killed doing his, surely a matter of respect to not willy wave about how brave you are doing yours?

This.

[Mk3Spitfire]

Rovinghawk said:

IrateNinja said:

However this is a thread about a man who was killed doing his, surely a matter of respect to not willy wave about how brave you are doing yours?

This.

Totally agree with Ninja, and for once I agree with RH. Get over yourself.

[AngryPartsBloke]

Willy Nilly said:

No Bend said:

Willy Nilly said:

Baryonyx said:

Mr GrimNasty said:

Very sad etc. but please lets not go through the dangerous job, constantly laying their life on the line, rubbish again.

Policing is a pretty safe job, way down the list of dangerous occupations.

Ha, you must be joking. I'm guessing you missed the part where he was murdered whilst doing his job?

Perhaps your car will be stolen, would you rather the police did nothing to get it back if they had the chance to? We're lucky to have braver sorts than you looking after us, at least.

Go and do some research on dangerous jobs and have a look where being a police officer is. My job is in the Champions League every year

That may be the case, but do people actively seek you out to cause you harm? Is it your job to run towards dangerous situations rather than run away?

Regardless of whether people set out to cause me and people in my line of work harm, our job is much more likely to kill us than a police officers job. Working alone, working with chemicals, working in remote places, working with machines, working in difficult to control environments, working with dangerous and unpredictable animals, working in dust, working at height.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/foi/fatalities/2015-16.htm No policemen here

http://www.hse.gov.uk/foi/fatalities/2014-15.htm or here

Well done billy big bks, it must be a great source of pride for you that despite this Offier beign Murdered doing his job and won't be coming home to his family that your job is much more dangerous.

Give yourself a big round of applause. Seriously what is wrong with you? Get some class man.

[Willy Nilly]

AngryPartsBloke said:

Well done billy big bks, it must be a great source of pride for you that despite this Offier beign Murdered doing his job and won't be coming home to his family that your job is much more dangerous.

Give yourself a big round of applause. Seriously what is wrong with you? Get some class man.

I'm not making light of the man that got killed, but am trying to point out to posters that are making the comment about what a dangerous job policing is, that hardly any police officers get killed at work. People in other sectors get killed at work all of the time and their families are probably less likely to be well taken care of by their employers.

[Greendubber]

Willy Nilly said:

I'm not making light of the man that got killed, but am trying to point out to posters that are making the comment about what a dangerous job policing is, that hardly any police officers get killed at work. People in other sectors get killed at work all of the time and their families are probably less likely to be well taken care of by their employers.

And you're completely missing the point that La Liga has pointed out to you, twice.

[anonymous-user]

BOF said:

Maybe I've missed it...but is there somewhere to make a small donation to his wife and kids?

BOF

A just giving page has been setup http://campaign.justgiving.com/charity/mpfct/dave

Reassuring to see that its at 50k already.

[AB]

Two females now arrested for assisting the two male suspects.

http://news.sky.com/story/1564777/more-arrests-ove...

According to a taxi driver he picked up one of the guys who told him he had done it and asked to be taken to a solicitors office!?

[Durzel]

With any luck they all get battered in court. One would hope, and it is surely in public interest, to impose a very heavy deterrent sentence.

Obviously this is all assuming they can be proven to be guilty of the offences charged.