Merseyside policeman struck and killed by stolen vehicle.
Discussion
Willy Nilly said:
I'm not making light of the man that got killed, but am trying to point out to posters that are making the comment about what a dangerous job policing is, that hardly any police officers get killed at work. People in other sectors get killed at work all of the time and their families are probably less likely to be well taken care of by their employers.
Policing is imo an inherently risky job no matter what division you're in. You're ultimately arresting or otherwise exerting control over people who in many cases won't want to go quietly, and actively have an incentive to avoid being arrested. Police officers are the front line of justice making these necessary arrests, while the rest of us are able to sleep soundly and just let "the system" (the system being a bunch of human beings, like us, who have accepted the charge of making the rest of us safe) do its job. I'm not going to call them superheros, but most of them are doing a job that the rest of us couldn't do either emotionally or physically. I couldn't even deal with being the first responder in the aftermath of a crash where there is serious injury or death.
Policing is patently a more dangerous job than many others. People in other sectors who get killed are - as I'm sure you know - as a result of workplace accidents. The nature of the job may involve risk, but I doubt very much it involves the same kind of risk where on any given day, as in the case of this Merseyside cop, you could start the day not knowing whether you're going to be dealing with mundane offences, or have someone deliberately running over you in a 4x4.
Durzel said:
Willy Nilly said:
I'm not making light of the man that got killed, but am trying to point out to posters that are making the comment about what a dangerous job policing is, that hardly any police officers get killed at work. People in other sectors get killed at work all of the time and their families are probably less likely to be well taken care of by their employers.
Policing is imo an inherently risky job no matter what division you're in. You're ultimately arresting or otherwise exerting control over people who in many cases won't want to go quietly, and actively have an incentive to avoid being arrested. Police officers are the front line of justice making these necessary arrests, while the rest of us are able to sleep soundly and just let "the system" (the system being a bunch of human beings, like us, who have accepted the charge of making the rest of us safe) do its job. I'm not going to call them superheros, but most of them are doing a job that the rest of us couldn't do either emotionally or physically. I couldn't even deal with being the first responder in the aftermath of a crash where there is serious injury or death.
Policing is patently a more dangerous job than many others. People in other sectors who get killed are - as I'm sure you know - as a result of workplace accidents. The nature of the job may involve risk, but I doubt very much it involves the same kind of risk where on any given day, as in the case of this Merseyside cop, you could start the day not knowing whether you're going to be dealing with mundane offences, or have someone deliberately running over you in a 4x4.
Willy Nilly said:
Regardless of whether people set out to cause me and people in my line of work harm, our job is much more likely to kill us than a police officers job. Working alone, working with chemicals, working in remote places, working with machines, working in difficult to control environments, working with dangerous and unpredictable animals, working in dust, working at height and wearing ladies clothes.
Mate, it's up to you if you want to work in the circus and wear clown suits or ladies clothes. 
Yes, other jobs get people killed more often and no they and their families don't get headline recognition for the death or from what you assume some sort of large compensation. But you don't deal with criminal or insane minds. Yes, the circus elephants can get stroppy and a bit stompy, they do kick up a bit of dust and it feels really high when riding them, yes the crowds point when your dress doesn't fit right but hey, go and try something really unpredictable and go and join the cops. Not nice to blow your own trumpet here about how much more dangerouser braverer and manlier you may be.
Greendubber said:
Willy Nilly said:
I'm not making light of the man that got killed, but am trying to point out to posters that are making the comment about what a dangerous job policing is, that hardly any police officers get killed at work. People in other sectors get killed at work all of the time and their families are probably less likely to be well taken care of by their employers.
And you're completely missing the point that La Liga has pointed out to you, twice.Dictionary said:
1. liability or exposure to harm or injury; risk; peril.
2. an instance or cause of peril; menace.
3. Obsolete. power; jurisdiction; domain.
Again, it's not a contest but the data in which defines 'dangerous' when we read about it in articles etc is from the HSE. The HSE do not captured the majority of policing injuries including serious injuries. 2. an instance or cause of peril; menace.
3. Obsolete. power; jurisdiction; domain.
That's without even considering risk. Risk is nearly always intangible and hard to measure. As I said before, the police may manage the risks they face better than other industries so we don't get more bad outcomes to officers. We have a deeply ingrained risk-management culture because most of us do not carry firearms, unlike nearly everywhere else in the world.
There's also the relativity. If X isn't the most dangerous, does that mean it isn't dangerous? Are we saying anything less dangerous than the most dangerous isn't dangerous?
The HSE, with has extremely limited data, it only has 393 assaults recorded in a year! It's actually closer to 20k, albeit there will be gross under-reporting by the police and many will not fall within the scope of RIDDOR. 393 is 12 x the 'all occupations rate', so if my maths is right, 20k is 610 x the 'all occupations' rate^. No danger there, though, because in one industry more people fell from height and were killed...
Is it entirely rational the death of a police officer receives lots of coverage but the death of someone in whatever industry does not? Perhaps not, but it's not about the police officer per se, it's about the symbolism. The police are the public and public the police. It's an attack on law and order and on the law-abiding public who consent to the policing that keeps society functioning. That's why it gets into into the consciousness of the masses so effectively. Just as it did with Hughes and Bone who were murdered by Cregan. People don't feel a fall from height is a threat to society. They do when a police officer is murdered because the police aren't supposed to get murdered, they are supposed to 'win' against the bad guys.
^Some range needs to be taken into account as the 'all occupations rate' can only rise if we include non-RIDDOR level assaults as I have done with the policing data.
Laurel Green said:
A vigil is planned tonight in New Brighton, Wirral, in memory of PC Dave Phillips.
It is being organised by Wirral resident Mandy Fellows. She has asked local people to meet at Fort Perch Rock at 19:00 to release balloons, light candles and take part in a minute's silence.
mere resident or is it the same Mandy Fellows who is apparently Events & PR Manager of Hidden Wirral Myths & Legends Ltd // involved with Hidden Wirral Paranormal Investigations Team?It is being organised by Wirral resident Mandy Fellows. She has asked local people to meet at Fort Perch Rock at 19:00 to release balloons, light candles and take part in a minute's silence.
charltjr said:
Just checked the BBC News site and seen they have a three minute video of the relatives leaving flowers at the crash site and pictures of the children's final messages to the deceased.
WTF is wrong with journalism these days. Some things should be private.
I think I heard as part of the report that the BBC reporter said that the PC's family gave permission of them giving their respects to be shown? It is 0.53 seconds into the video where it says it was arranged through the police family press office. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-34...WTF is wrong with journalism these days. Some things should be private.
Edited by rewc on Wednesday 7th October 16:48
rewc said:
I think I heard as part of the report that the BBC reporter said that the PC's family gave permission of them giving their respects to be shown?
The family have actually publicly thanked the media for remembering he's a father a son and a husband as well as a murdered police officer.Ki3r said:
18 year old has been charged with murder.
Reported on the BBC.
Indeed. Reported on the BBC.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-34...
Why was he waking the streets in the first place?
Assumeing it's type same person
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news...
Assumeing it's type same person
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news...
Looks like that case concluded at Liverpool Crown Court a month later. If it's the same person. Presumption of innocence applies in this case, etc, etc. No doubt an enterprising journalist will discover the details soon, then - questions in parliament about lenient sentences, kneejerk reaction by government, the usual stuff.
Whilst they absolutely deserve it and I hope they remain in jail for the rest of their lives, I'd be amazed if a murder conviction is made successfully.
If I was the defence lawyer, I'd be arguing that the automatic reaction of seeing a stinger is to change direction away from it, this particular change of direction unfortunately ending up with the vehicle creating a path towards the Police officer, thereby causing the fatal collision.
If I was the defence lawyer, I'd be arguing that the automatic reaction of seeing a stinger is to change direction away from it, this particular change of direction unfortunately ending up with the vehicle creating a path towards the Police officer, thereby causing the fatal collision.
Whereas the prosecution will be arguing that Stinger or not driving at that speed and in that manner in a built up area is highly likely to cause a death. The defendant is manifestly reckless of this fact (which in English law is as good as intent) and so who dies is irrelevant. A murderer is one who kills with intent or intends to commit GBH and kills or is reckless as to how much harm he does, and kills. Test cases include drugs dealers who shoot at a fellow dealer and kill an innocent passer-by. "I didn't intend to kill him" is the defence but it doesn't matter because you fired a gun intending to kill *someone*. If you can't aim, not my problem. Guilty.
battered said:
Whereas the prosecution will be arguing that Stinger or not driving at that speed and in that manner in a built up area is highly likely to cause a death. The defendant is manifestly reckless of this fact (which in English law is as good as intent) and so who dies is irrelevant.
Does this law also apply to people who kill while driving fast in a built up area as part of their job?If the driver for no obvious reason changed course and mowed down the officer then it is murder. If he hit him while avoiding a stinger e.t.c, then manslaughter.
We can be rest assured that even if he is only convicted of manslaughter, he will be going down for the maximum possible time. A very good thing as he deserves it for unnecessarily taking a life and wrecking a family
Sad thing is if you are a little girl run over and killed by a disqualified asylum seeker, a member of the public killed by a lunatic you've just told to stop cycling on the pavement or an 81 year grandfather killed for fun while standing in front of a mosque, your killers will get 4 months, 4 years and 4½ years respectively.
A 2-tier justice system in my opinion.
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