parking ticket in own apartment space

[WCZ]

I own an apartment with an underground car parking space, it's a new build in the city center and at the time there was no parking enforcement company in place.

Fast forward 5 months suddenly the management company employs a parking management company and asks everyone to apply for permits. Within the first week of it going live I received a PCN for not displaying a permit.

After trawling a few forums I checked my car parking lease and it makes absolutely no reference for any requirement to display a permit - it is my land after all!

I appealed directly to the company and it was rejected so I've appealed with POPLA (I attached a pdf version of my lease too) and now have received a reply from the parking company stating:

"We are in possession of a signed agreement with the landowner. The attached agreement (actual contract produced and not merely a witness statement) clearly shows that we have the appropriate authorisation to enforce the notices issued at the site. The BPA have issued the following statement: “The contract incorporates the elements that we require in our Code of Practice. It can be clearly seen the contract has been signed to the effect that UK Parking Patrol have the authority to take legal action against the driver or the keeper”.

what is this agreement? - I can't see any attached documents they have and can this document really take the legal high ground over the actual parking lease ?

[stuttgartmetal]

Yes

[Thermobaric]

You should still be able to get out of it. Get on to Pepipoo, start a thread and explain the situation. You could have killed it at Popla with their help if you had known sadly. Still winnable and that company doesn't do court from what I gather so you just need to play the game.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showforum=60

[WCZ]

stuttgartmetal said:

Yes

[marshalla]

Do you own the freehold ?

[WCZ]

marshalla said:

Do you own the freehold ?

nope, it's leasehold

I've started a thread on pepipoo!

[Thermobaric]

A reply already over there. Nice.

[surveyor]

Did you have a permit in your window and why not, if not?

You need to read the Lease to discover whether the management company have the right to put any sort of parking control in place. I'd be surprised if they did not.

Let's go back to basics also. These contracts cause hassle, and management agents typically make absolutely nothing on them. They are normally put in place when tenants complain about their car parking spaces being abused.

I struggle to see what is so onerous about putting a sticker in a window, but I have seen those that do, and generally have no sympathy for them.

But the answer to your question is it depends on the wording in the lease.

Peppipoo may help fight on myre general grounds...

[WCZ]

surveyor said:

Did you have a permit in your window and why not, if not?

You need to read the Lease to discover whether the management company have the right to put any sort of parking control in place. I'd be surprised if they did not.

Let's go back to basics also. These contracts cause hassle, and management agents typically make absolutely nothing on them. They are normally put in place when tenants complain about their car parking spaces being abused.

I struggle to see what is so onerous about putting a sticker in a window, but I have seen those that do, and generally have no sympathy for them.

But the answer to your question is it depends on the wording in the lease.

Peppipoo may help fight on myre general grounds...

as per my original post, the management company decided to employ the parking patrol company on a permit basis after 5+ months of me living in the building - I was one of the first residents to move in. I hadn't received (or applied) for a permit yet or else I would have simply displayed it, i'm not attempting to be awkward here for the sake of it - I paid £20,000 for the space.

the car next to me had 14 tickets, I believe she was on holiday when it was issued (I wondered whether she was parked there without owning it but now the car is displaying a permit) with the attitude of the parking company I presume that will end up in court too

in previous apartments I've lived at (renting) the systems have *always* been that if someone parks in your space then you call up a number and the offender is towed away, I personally prefer this system as it actually allows you to park in your spot again.

I've checked the lease several times and there is absolutely nothing of the sort about complying with anything like this.

[creampuff]

This has happened to me a couple of times before and each time, I've called up the management company and they have cancelled the ticket. OP, have you done this?

[Thermobaric]

A private parking company acting rationally? Crazy ha ha

[AA999]

creampuff said:

This has happened to me a couple of times before and each time, I've called up the management company and they have cancelled the ticket. OP, have you done this?

WCZ said:

I appealed directly to the company and it was rejected ....

I'm not an expert on this but if you've got 'ownership' of the parking space then a private company would have to have a contract with your signature on it to allow them to 'control' 'your' space. ?

But I guess it will depend on what is written in the 'deeds'. For example, is your title the 'landowner' on the leasehold?

Edited by AA999 on Monday 2nd November 16:02

[WCZ]

creampuff said:

This has happened to me a couple of times before and each time, I've called up the management company and they have cancelled the ticket. OP, have you done this?

the management company laughably say 'they have no right to have tickets canceled' and have even sided with the parking company during the disputes!

the annoying thing is that even in their statement to the POPLA the parking company says (and I quote) "Whilst we do not dispute that the Appellant was the owner of the space when the notice was issued"

it's pure greed from them imo

usually I don't have the time to go to court to dispute relatively inexpensive fines but this is just so plainly wrong that I refuse to budge

[surveyor]

WCZ said:

surveyor said:

Did you have a permit in your window and why not, if not?

You need to read the Lease to discover whether the management company have the right to put any sort of parking control in place. I'd be surprised if they did not.

Let's go back to basics also. These contracts cause hassle, and management agents typically make absolutely nothing on them. They are normally put in place when tenants complain about their car parking spaces being abused.

I struggle to see what is so onerous about putting a sticker in a window, but I have seen those that do, and generally have no sympathy for them.

But the answer to your question is it depends on the wording in the lease.

Peppipoo may help fight on myre general grounds...

as per my original post, the management company decided to employ the parking patrol company on a permit basis after 5+ months of me living in the building - I was one of the first residents to move in. I hadn't received (or applied) for a permit yet or else I would have simply displayed it, i'm not attempting to be awkward here for the sake of it - I paid £20,000 for the space.

the car next to me had 14 tickets, I believe she was on holiday when it was issued (I wondered whether she was parked there without owning it but now the car is displaying a permit) with the attitude of the parking company I presume that will end up in court too

in previous apartments I've lived at (renting) the systems have *always* been that if someone parks in your space then you call up a number and the offender is towed away, I personally prefer this system as it actually allows you to park in your spot again.

I've checked the lease several times and there is absolutely nothing of the sort about complying with anything like this.

If permits have not been made available then I would agree the ticket (as opposed to PCN) is not supportable. I would also support a stance that they should be providing you with a permit - not making you apply for something.

Without looking at your lease I can't dispute what you say about their being no option for control - however I would still be surprised if it's not hidden in there somewhere. It may well be worded somewhat blandly. I'll even take a look if you fancy a laugh....

Have you spoken to the managing agents?

[WCZ]

surveyor said:

If permits have not been made available then I would agree the ticket (as opposed to PCN) is not supportable. I would also support a stance that they should be providing you with a permit - not making you apply for something.

Without looking at your lease I can't dispute what you say about their being no option for control - however I would still be surprised if it's not hidden in there somewhere. It may well be worded somewhat blandly. I'll even take a look if you fancy a laugh....

Have you spoken to the managing agents?

the management agents needed to know my registration plate - though I have several cars and would have needed several permits. (there's nothing in the lease about only being able to park one vehicle either)

I'd send you the lease but it contains way too many personal details etc!

[surveyor]

WCZ said:

surveyor said:

If permits have not been made available then I would agree the ticket (as opposed to PCN) is not supportable. I would also support a stance that they should be providing you with a permit - not making you apply for something.

Without looking at your lease I can't dispute what you say about their being no option for control - however I would still be surprised if it's not hidden in there somewhere. It may well be worded somewhat blandly. I'll even take a look if you fancy a laugh....

Have you spoken to the managing agents?

the management agents needed to know my registration plate - though I have several cars and would have needed several permits. (there's nothing in the lease about only being able to park one vehicle either)

I'd send you the lease but it contains way too many personal details etc!

Not sure what would be personal in a lease other than couple of mentions of your name, and the address... but whatever - I have no particular desire to read one - but I would suggest if you really do have an issue then you need to pay a solicitor to read it.

You are entitled to quiet enjoyment, and while I strongly suspect that there will be a clause letting them put control measures in place, the fact that you have more than one car will give them a problem - but it's their problem. You do need to resolve that or I guess you will keep getting tickets and hassle.

In a former management life I had a car park under my control and lots of people abused the parking. We eventually put clampers in and of course one dumb solicitor tenant parked in it. He then lied about the pass being in place, although the clampers were aware of that and had photo's before he put the pass in.... We did have an agreement that tenant's who parked in others spaces etc. would get a discounted rate the first time.

Parking control was not something that we wanted to bring in, but complaints dropped from a number a week to 1 a month. Neither the landlord or us received a penny. The downside to that is the clampers had the control and were reluctant to let people off, being used to being abused and being lied to. They would do it - but it had to be a bloody good reason....

[Blue Oval84]

surveyor said:

Not sure what would be personal in a lease other than couple of mentions of your name, and the address... but whatever - I have no particular desire to read one - but I would suggest if you really do have an issue then you need to pay a solicitor to read it.

You are entitled to quiet enjoyment, and while I strongly suspect that there will be a clause letting them put control measures in place, the fact that you have more than one car will give them a problem - but it's their problem. You do need to resolve that or I guess you will keep getting tickets and hassle.

^This.

I had the same situation at my block, so read my lease cover to cover, long and short of it was that I had the right to use the space but somewhere in there was a clause to say (and I'm paraphrasing) that it was "subject to any reasonable requirements imposed by the freeholder". I guessed that a parking enforcement company could potentially be considered reasonable.

In the end I didn't need to challenge the freeholder in court, because the parking company had written my registration down incorrectly. I appealed the ticket via an appeal service that charged IIRC £16 to appeal and claim to pay your ticket for you if you lose the appeal. Never heard anything more about it.

I still feel I shouldn't really have had to pay the £16, but decided that discretion was the better part of valour. Plus my freeholders have a bad reputation and I don't want to engage them in legal action unless necessary!

OP - go read your lease, they're chunky documents but they're not *that* hard to read, any rights the freeholder has to interfere with your use of the space will be written in the lease.

[JonV8V]

I guess sticking a permit in the car is a lot less hassle than somebody sticking their car in your space and nothing being done. They are not mind readers so help them out because in reality you probably want the parking company more than you don't.

[blueg33]

Under a long lease the op is the beneficial owner of the parking space. My solicitor suggests that this means that the parking company need the ops permission even if the freeholder had given consent. The devil is always in the details, so as others say read the lease.

Following that appeal to popla as led the stuff on pipipoo eg proof of loss, authority to charge dtc

[HantsRat]

If it's leasehold, then you do not own the land. The land owner owns the lands and leases it out. The land owner can put whatever conditions they like on their land.

I would just pay up and get a permit for future use. After all it will stop people parking in your bays that do not live there.