University degree required to join the police
Discussion
Greendubber said:
Eclassy said:
Apart from the medical profession and maybe engineers, no one really needs a degree. In most occupations you can learn everything on the job.
If teachers require degrees to teach primary and secondary school students. Can you please articulate your arguments against police officers having a degree?
To soften the financial impact on potential officers, you can go the professional accounting qualification route i.e. recruit people as officers and mandate it that they pass the profesaional police exams or obtain a degree within 3 years. This should be partly funded by the police. In those 3 years they should be limited to certain roles e.g custody suite, police station desks, manning scamera vans e.t.
What planet are you on.If teachers require degrees to teach primary and secondary school students. Can you please articulate your arguments against police officers having a degree?
To soften the financial impact on potential officers, you can go the professional accounting qualification route i.e. recruit people as officers and mandate it that they pass the profesaional police exams or obtain a degree within 3 years. This should be partly funded by the police. In those 3 years they should be limited to certain roles e.g custody suite, police station desks, manning scamera vans e.t.
How many professions are there that require a specific degree? I think he has a point that very many vocations are, and can be and mayber should be served through learning in the job and industry specific examinations.
One example to support this is the number of graduates whose degrees hold almost no correlation to the career they take. Few students of classical studies, history of art or any of the three hour a week degrees go in to earn a living specific to that degree. In reality, employers look at which university they attended more than what degree subject they studied.
I think that if we were to extrapolate this to today's graduates and the immense range of subjects and quality of education then maybe it is even more true?
I don't know but I suspect a very significant number of graduates move into a career that is unrelated and learn on the job or sit industry specific exams during early employment?
DonkeyApple said:
Let's say he is on Planet Generalisation and so take the gist of what he was meaning and look at the broader picture?
How many professions are there that require a specific degree? I think he has a point that very many vocations are, and can be and mayber should be served through learning in the job and industry specific examinations.
One example to support this is the number of graduates whose degrees hold almost no correlation to the career they take. Few students of classical studies, history of art or any of the three hour a week degrees go in to earn a living specific to that degree. In reality, employers look at which university they attended more than what degree subject they studied.
I think that if we were to extrapolate this to today's graduates and the immense range of subjects and quality of education then maybe it is even more true?
I don't know but I suspect a very significant number of graduates move into a career that is unrelated and learn on the job or sit industry specific exams during early employment?
equally, large numbers of graduates have undertaken degrees with extensive vocational training incorpoated within the degree syllabus ... How many professions are there that require a specific degree? I think he has a point that very many vocations are, and can be and mayber should be served through learning in the job and industry specific examinations.
One example to support this is the number of graduates whose degrees hold almost no correlation to the career they take. Few students of classical studies, history of art or any of the three hour a week degrees go in to earn a living specific to that degree. In reality, employers look at which university they attended more than what degree subject they studied.
I think that if we were to extrapolate this to today's graduates and the immense range of subjects and quality of education then maybe it is even more true?
I don't know but I suspect a very significant number of graduates move into a career that is unrelated and learn on the job or sit industry specific exams during early employment?
ash73 said:
What an idiotic idea. A mate of mine has no qualifications and he's a brilliant copper, because he knows how to deal with other people and has good common sense. I also know lots of degree educated people who lack these skills.
the same argument is used with regard to nursing and ambulance work ( but interestingly not the other none medicla Health Professions ) , it presumnes that having a degree will negate the other qualities sought through the recruitment and training process fundamentally there are going to be two potential routes if this is adopted
1. post graduate recruitment - which will fill the ranks with people of the same quality as many of the graduate officers currently serving
2. undergraduate recruitment with a 'health professional' style course where several thousand hours of practical experience is part of the course and the student Officers are assessed in both theory and practice.
valiant said:
Eclassy said:
La Liga said:
The police are flushed with money at the moment.
I agree. Any force that spends £13m over 3 years guarding an embassy and has 29 officers inveatigating a cold case, is not lacking funds.Not far off 20 years ago my daughter thought about joining the police, she attended a school careers day and spoke to someone on the police stand, she was advised that to get in it would be a good idea to do a degree first as it would enhance her chances of being accepted.
She decided against a police career as it turned out.
I certainly don't think it should be a prerequisite of being accepted but I can see why it could be seen as a benefit, gaining a degree proves that the graduate has persevered over a period of time and has the capability to learn.
She decided against a police career as it turned out.
I certainly don't think it should be a prerequisite of being accepted but I can see why it could be seen as a benefit, gaining a degree proves that the graduate has persevered over a period of time and has the capability to learn.
I'm amazed that some people equate having a degree with being intelligent. It isn't always the case. I've met some graduates who were as thick as cold pigs
t.
No, I don't have a degree but went to university for 3 years. I was too young and spent too much time either driving too fast or drinking in the Beer Bar in the Union.
Alan, BSc (failed) Electrical & Electronic Engineering.
t.No, I don't have a degree but went to university for 3 years. I was too young and spent too much time either driving too fast or drinking in the Beer Bar in the Union.
Alan, BSc (failed) Electrical & Electronic Engineering.
mph1977 said:
the same argument is used with regard to nursing and ambulance work ( but interestingly not the other none medicla Health Professions ) , it presumnes that having a degree will negate the other qualities sought through the recruitment and training process
fundamentally there are going to be two potential routes if this is adopted
1. post graduate recruitment - which will fill the ranks with people of the same quality as many of the graduate officers currently serving
2. undergraduate recruitment with a 'health professional' style course where several thousand hours of practical experience is part of the course and the student Officers are assessed in both theory and practice.
Yes, I suspect the real reason for the idea is to push all the cost of training a new PC away from the tax payer and onto the PC by means of putting the training into a 3 year specific degree that they must pay for themselves. As opposed to only recruiting chaps who have spent three years basket weaving or reading a book on some dead blokes who ran about in dresses. fundamentally there are going to be two potential routes if this is adopted
1. post graduate recruitment - which will fill the ranks with people of the same quality as many of the graduate officers currently serving
2. undergraduate recruitment with a 'health professional' style course where several thousand hours of practical experience is part of the course and the student Officers are assessed in both theory and practice.
DonkeyApple said:
Yes, I suspect the real reason for the idea is to push all the cost of training a new PC away from the tax payer and onto the PC by means of putting the training into a 3 year specific degree that they must pay for themselves. As opposed to only recruiting chaps who have spent three years basket weaving or reading a book on some dead blokes who ran about in dresses.
quite possibly bursary rather than salary, 3 years of half FTE equivalent service as placements , not i nthe pension until graduation ...
( extrapolating the none medical Health professional model)
I don't think that a degree is necessary for most careers- in many I see it as just an exercise in self-aggrandisement as it was deemed unnecessary for all but the last 10 years of the various professions.
I don't see that having a degree will make one iota of difference to a career except where there are specific needs such as engineering or medicine. My degree is highly relevant to my profession but that's not particularly common.
Since the proliferation of university courses in relatively worthless subjects & the dumbing down of courses to accept larger numbers, degrees have become devalued; to stand out, graduates now seem to need a master's degree that seems little harder than the bachelor's degree of old.
I believe in education, but mandating graduate entry should only be done when there is a purpose to it. I see no purpose here.
I don't see that having a degree will make one iota of difference to a career except where there are specific needs such as engineering or medicine. My degree is highly relevant to my profession but that's not particularly common.
Since the proliferation of university courses in relatively worthless subjects & the dumbing down of courses to accept larger numbers, degrees have become devalued; to stand out, graduates now seem to need a master's degree that seems little harder than the bachelor's degree of old.
I believe in education, but mandating graduate entry should only be done when there is a purpose to it. I see no purpose here.
DonkeyApple said:
mph1977 said:
the same argument is used with regard to nursing and ambulance work ( but interestingly not the other none medicla Health Professions ) , it presumnes that having a degree will negate the other qualities sought through the recruitment and training process
fundamentally there are going to be two potential routes if this is adopted
1. post graduate recruitment - which will fill the ranks with people of the same quality as many of the graduate officers currently serving
2. undergraduate recruitment with a 'health professional' style course where several thousand hours of practical experience is part of the course and the student Officers are assessed in both theory and practice.
Yes, I suspect the real reason for the idea is to push all the cost of training a new PC away from the tax payer and onto the PC by means of putting the training into a 3 year specific degree that they must pay for themselves. As opposed to only recruiting chaps who have spent three years basket weaving or reading a book on some dead blokes who ran about in dresses. fundamentally there are going to be two potential routes if this is adopted
1. post graduate recruitment - which will fill the ranks with people of the same quality as many of the graduate officers currently serving
2. undergraduate recruitment with a 'health professional' style course where several thousand hours of practical experience is part of the course and the student Officers are assessed in both theory and practice.
tapereel said:
...maybe completing the degree at the National College of Policing...hang on, isn't that where we started?
or a CoP approved degree eslewhere, much as the GMC/ NMC/ HCPC approve pre-reg programmes for health professionals as well as acting as professional regulator ... the CoP also offers an opportunity, depending on whether the public could stomach it, for the various forms of none ploice law enforcement and the quasi law enforcement types to actually have a common professional qualification
( by quyasi LAw enforcement i mean the likes of the RSPCA Walter Mitty Service, sorry Inspoectorate )
tapereel said:
DonkeyApple said:
mph1977 said:
the same argument is used with regard to nursing and ambulance work ( but interestingly not the other none medicla Health Professions ) , it presumnes that having a degree will negate the other qualities sought through the recruitment and training process
fundamentally there are going to be two potential routes if this is adopted
1. post graduate recruitment - which will fill the ranks with people of the same quality as many of the graduate officers currently serving
2. undergraduate recruitment with a 'health professional' style course where several thousand hours of practical experience is part of the course and the student Officers are assessed in both theory and practice.
Yes, I suspect the real reason for the idea is to push all the cost of training a new PC away from the tax payer and onto the PC by means of putting the training into a 3 year specific degree that they must pay for themselves. As opposed to only recruiting chaps who have spent three years basket weaving or reading a book on some dead blokes who ran about in dresses. fundamentally there are going to be two potential routes if this is adopted
1. post graduate recruitment - which will fill the ranks with people of the same quality as many of the graduate officers currently serving
2. undergraduate recruitment with a 'health professional' style course where several thousand hours of practical experience is part of the course and the student Officers are assessed in both theory and practice.
. I get the feeling this is more about a soft privatisation of police training?
Eclassy said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34805856
I think it is a fantastic idea. It wont completely stop morons and illiterates from joining but it will weed out a lot of them.
A few examples of how a degree will help:
In university you are exposed to interacting and working with people from all backgrounds so officers with degrees are more likely to be prejudiced.
Officers will be able to read and write. If the officer who obtained a warrant to raid my house could read and maybe do a little bit of critical thinking, he would have realised it was the wrong place. When I was attacked in my much publicised video and went to give a statement, the officer's writing was not only terrible, it was littered with spelling mistakes. I remember telling him the assailant 'alighted' from his vehicle and he asked me what that meant.
Officers with a degree will also be able to better interprete the law and as such do no more than they are empowered to do. This should lead to a reduction in unlawfull arrests.
Ironically, one of the most spectacular 'kick down the door of the wrong house' examples of how not to execute a warrant that I ever took part in, was planned and lead by an Inspector with a degree who had recently been promoted to that rank via the Bramshill Special Course. He was a very clever bloke but totally useless operationally. Needless to say he went on to become a Chief Constable.I think it is a fantastic idea. It wont completely stop morons and illiterates from joining but it will weed out a lot of them.
A few examples of how a degree will help:
In university you are exposed to interacting and working with people from all backgrounds so officers with degrees are more likely to be prejudiced.
Officers will be able to read and write. If the officer who obtained a warrant to raid my house could read and maybe do a little bit of critical thinking, he would have realised it was the wrong place. When I was attacked in my much publicised video and went to give a statement, the officer's writing was not only terrible, it was littered with spelling mistakes. I remember telling him the assailant 'alighted' from his vehicle and he asked me what that meant.
Officers with a degree will also be able to better interprete the law and as such do no more than they are empowered to do. This should lead to a reduction in unlawfull arrests.
In contrast , one of the best DetChSupts I ever worked for was a former milkman who left school at 15.
Eclassy said:
In those 3 years they should be limited to certain roles e.g custody suite, police station desks, manning scamera vans e.t.c
Custody suites are;1) Pretty thin on the ground. Many have been closed.
2) Becoming privatized (think G4S salivating at how much money they can make - this has been going on for a while now).
Police station front desks are;
1) Pretty thin on the ground. Many/ most have been closed.
2) Staffed by civilians/ becoming privatized.
Scamera vans are;
1) Pretty thin on the ground.
2) Staffed (mainly) by civilians.
So what you are proposing is that student officers are placed in jobs that don't exist/ are not seen as a police function/ core role.
Excellent. How is it on planet zarg ?
P.S. Many forces now only recruit "internally" - ie they require previous experience in a police environment - civilian or special.
I think most forces also require a certificate of knowledge in policing which will be obtained via a university course.
Degrees are irrelevant in policing. The recruitment process already tests people's aptitude (and that they can read and write).
Edited by Red 4 on Saturday 14th November 16:57
A University degree isnt a necessity - just a more robust selection process. Some that are physically fit and can read and write to a good standard will help. I managed nicely on an O level and half a dozen CSE's and still do. Ten weeks at training school sorted the no hopers out - then a robust probationary process where you could be summarily sacked as unsuitable without appeal got rid of the remainder.
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