University degree required to join the police
Discussion
Dr Jekyll said:
Bigends said:
a robust probationary process where you could be summarily sacked as unsuitable without appeal got rid of the remainder.
How often did that happen?If you werent up to scratch then it was Goodbye - nice knowing you. The job was looking at paying and investing in you for thirty odd years and wanted value for money.
My force training inspector is tearing her hair out with the quality of many of the recruits selected for training at the moment. Many ex PCSO's and Specials who knew the right things to say at the assessments and interview boards get through and are woefully lacking the qualities to become a good cop
Edited by Bigends on Saturday 14th November 18:31
DonkeyApple said:
Except the student is now paying directly as opposed to the taxpayer 
.
I get the feeling this is more about a soft privatisation of police training?
in the way that health professional training has been soft privatised over the past 40 or so years ? ( and how pre-reg medicla traijing has always been 'soft privatised' ). I get the feeling this is more about a soft privatisation of police training?
Bigends said:
I saw quite a few fall at the wayside through this - couldnt give numbers. At the end of the probationary course was a two week residential continuation course at a regional centre. If your performance had been a bit borderline - your results on that course would often be the decider.
If you werent up to scratch then it was Goodbye - nice knowing you. The job was looking at paying and investing in you for thirty odd years and wanted value for money.
My force training inspector is tearing her hair out with the quality of many of the recruits selected for training at the moment. Many ex PCSO's and Specials who knew the right things to say at the assessments and interview boards get through and are woefully lacking the qualities to become a good cop
Mind you, we were broken into recently and I watched a very pleasant PC park outside our neighbour's, ring their doorbell thinking No 27 was No 16. Even when I approached him and pointed out the large '16' on the front of my building he stuck to his guns and told me the house he was standing outside was No 16. If you werent up to scratch then it was Goodbye - nice knowing you. The job was looking at paying and investing in you for thirty odd years and wanted value for money.
My force training inspector is tearing her hair out with the quality of many of the recruits selected for training at the moment. Many ex PCSO's and Specials who knew the right things to say at the assessments and interview boards get through and are woefully lacking the qualities to become a good cop
Edited by Bigends on Saturday 14th November 18:31
It was a genuinely baffling conversation. Later he said he'd been a PC for 13 years. So some complete plums have clearly gotten in a long time ago.
The crime chap who turned up to dust for prints was then found using my car bonnet as his work bench and left scratches across the wing where the zip of his coat scratched hard against it. He genuinely didn't see it as a problem when I asked him if he could desist. He did more damage cost wise than the scrote who broke in.
eldar said:
sparkythecat said:
Rather than burden the police forces with this cost, why not, in common with most other professions, get the would be recruits, to go and pay for their own training at a university?
Because a degree is a nice transferable qualification, unless you mean a 'I want to be a policeperson' degree. Which at £50,000 might produce a rather skewed pool of candidates for a job which isn't well paid, has some awful working conditions and promotion prospects.Edited by sparkythecat on Saturday 14th November 10:43
Parachuting graduates straight into higher ranks has already screwed the police service.
Take this route and we just get b
ks like "there's no such thing as an accident, someone must be to blame, so never, ever, say road traffic accident again".
Extend graduate requirement to all recruits and we're doomed.
Take this route and we just get b
ks like "there's no such thing as an accident, someone must be to blame, so never, ever, say road traffic accident again".Extend graduate requirement to all recruits and we're doomed.
Eclassy said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34805856
I think it is a fantastic idea. It wont completely stop morons and illiterates from joining but it will weed out a lot of them.
A few examples of how a degree will help:
In university you are exposed to interacting and working with people from all backgrounds so officers with degrees are more likely to be prejudiced.
Officers will be able to read and write. If the officer who obtained a warrant to raid my house could read and maybe do a little bit of critical thinking, he would have realised it was the wrong place. When I was attacked in my much publicised video and went to give a statement, the officer's writing was not only terrible, it was littered with spelling mistakes. I remember telling him the assailant 'alighted' from his vehicle and he asked me what that meant.
Officers with a degree will also be able to better interprete the law and as such do no more than they are empowered to do. This should lead to a reduction in unlawfull arrests.
obviously anyone from an ethnic minority or any of the other polictical correctness activists wet dreams will be exempt from any recruitment regulations like these if they dont meet their intake quota.........I think it is a fantastic idea. It wont completely stop morons and illiterates from joining but it will weed out a lot of them.
A few examples of how a degree will help:
In university you are exposed to interacting and working with people from all backgrounds so officers with degrees are more likely to be prejudiced.
Officers will be able to read and write. If the officer who obtained a warrant to raid my house could read and maybe do a little bit of critical thinking, he would have realised it was the wrong place. When I was attacked in my much publicised video and went to give a statement, the officer's writing was not only terrible, it was littered with spelling mistakes. I remember telling him the assailant 'alighted' from his vehicle and he asked me what that meant.
Officers with a degree will also be able to better interprete the law and as such do no more than they are empowered to do. This should lead to a reduction in unlawfull arrests.
mybrainhurts said:
Parachuting graduates straight into higher ranks has already screwed the police service.
Take this route and we just get bks like "there's no such thing as an accident, someone must be to blame, so never, ever, say road traffic accident again".
Extend graduate requirement to all recruits and we're doomed.
DE supts are a last couple of years thing, they are still new ... or are you referring to HPDS, the problem there was realisticalkly it was neither fish nor fowl ... the risings stars who are good coppers and strike a balalnce would have risen regardless and the numpties would have risen to the point of the peter principle kicking in or banged out before they became pension slaves ... Take this route and we just get b
ks like "there's no such thing as an accident, someone must be to blame, so never, ever, say road traffic accident again".Extend graduate requirement to all recruits and we're doomed.
the terminiology, is not just the police and has come from smart arsed lawyers and the civil courts in the main, but then again antrual justice and fair trials are irrelevant tothe be-goateed powerfully built PH directors ..
A transferable qualification for police officers. Now there's an idea. With low pay, long hours, poor conditions and an anti-police government, or at least bashing the police is seen as a tick in the CV of anyone wanting to be PM, a transferable qualification, allied to a transferable pension, is more or less the kiss of death to any hope of keeping good officers. It is almost as if the government wants to kill the police.
Ability to learn from books is no way to limit the pool of applicants to the service.
I've known more or less dyslexic recruits from the army where they'd got to CSM and above on ability. One ex-sergeant failed the initial course. He was kept in and became well known in Thames Valley as an excellent officer. Not even a GCE. Yet any inspector with a bit of sense would have paid to get him on shift. He had spent time in NI, at the height of the 'troubles' (civil war) and I bet any soldier with an ounce of sense, or strong self preservation instinct, would have paid to be on his section.
One of the most intelligent officers I knew, who joined with a degree, then went to university to study for a masters and took another degree course in his downtime (he didn't seem to want to bother fraternising with the other students) became well known in his force and nationwide. Went by the name of, well let's just say nominative determinism rules. Very nice chap and an excellent dinner guest. Just had no idea. Bit of a Dick in fact. Not only could no one tell him anything, but neither could experience. Used to be mentioned quite often on these forums.
My IQ flirts with MENSA, or used to anyway. Never did me any good in the job.
The best bobbies in my day were those who could talk to people, but then we patrolled.
All good officers have a native intelligence, one that cannot be measured on the IQ scale. I've seen them. It has nothing to do with education, although it can help.
Ability to learn from books is no way to limit the pool of applicants to the service.
I've known more or less dyslexic recruits from the army where they'd got to CSM and above on ability. One ex-sergeant failed the initial course. He was kept in and became well known in Thames Valley as an excellent officer. Not even a GCE. Yet any inspector with a bit of sense would have paid to get him on shift. He had spent time in NI, at the height of the 'troubles' (civil war) and I bet any soldier with an ounce of sense, or strong self preservation instinct, would have paid to be on his section.
One of the most intelligent officers I knew, who joined with a degree, then went to university to study for a masters and took another degree course in his downtime (he didn't seem to want to bother fraternising with the other students) became well known in his force and nationwide. Went by the name of, well let's just say nominative determinism rules. Very nice chap and an excellent dinner guest. Just had no idea. Bit of a Dick in fact. Not only could no one tell him anything, but neither could experience. Used to be mentioned quite often on these forums.
My IQ flirts with MENSA, or used to anyway. Never did me any good in the job.
The best bobbies in my day were those who could talk to people, but then we patrolled.
All good officers have a native intelligence, one that cannot be measured on the IQ scale. I've seen them. It has nothing to do with education, although it can help.
Derek, maybe the politicals would still support the police as much as they used to if the upper ranks of the police hadn't become so political. And we are now seeing the same political problem within the armed forces.
It takes two to tango and as the modern police force likes to dabble in politics then they can't complain when the elected politicians decide to deal with them.
The police force would do well to bring the axe down on the senior staff who are politicised and revert to focussing on policing.
It takes two to tango and as the modern police force likes to dabble in politics then they can't complain when the elected politicians decide to deal with them.
The police force would do well to bring the axe down on the senior staff who are politicised and revert to focussing on policing.
DonkeyApple said:
Derek, maybe the politicals would still support the police as much as they used to if the upper ranks of the police hadn't become so political. And we are now seeing the same political problem within the armed forces.
It takes two to tango and as the modern police force likes to dabble in politics then they can't complain when the elected politicians decide to deal with them.
The police force would do well to bring the axe down on the senior staff who are politicised and revert to focussing on policing.
It takes two to tango and as the modern police force likes to dabble in politics then they can't complain when the elected politicians decide to deal with them.
The police force would do well to bring the axe down on the senior staff who are politicised and revert to focussing on policing.
It's a chicken and egg scenario though. My belief is that the police became politicised and then the senior ranks formed a block.
Whilst Blunkett didn't start it all, there is little doubt that he exacerbated an existing situation, one that is still extant. My belief is that he was inept, knew it and decided to bluff his way out by blaming the most convenient scapegoat, one that up until then, at least outside the Met, had been largely compliant and complacent. In those days it was the left that was anti police. Nowadays, if support is given by a contributor on Question Time to the service, there are dozens of posts to suggest that this is an example of left wing bias of the BBC.
May's level of antagonism towards the police gives no alternative but to form a protection group, unless you consider laying down and being kicked a reasonable course of action.
One particular instance is May's attack on the Federation funds. This is money, freely given to the Fed by individual officers. There is no requirement to pay it yet the Fed is required, by law, to provide a function, one that is not funded by the government. According to her is was all but stolen from the government.
I feel certain in my own mind, as any right thinking individual would I believe, consider that May's attack on the Federation has nothing to do with their funding of a civil case by one of their members, nor the funding of another civil case where the government have known for 8, going on for 9, years that retired fire officers and police officers had been underpaid. No, nothing at all to do with that.
The fire service, first to discover the underpayment, were unable to fund the case as there were unlikely to be costs awarded, and even if there were, they would not have come anywhere near the expenditure. They came to the Fed and joint funding was undertaken.
I feel certain that these two civil cases, funded by the Fed, and for those who hadn't paid into the fund as well, have absolutely nothing to do with May's vicious and misleading attack on the Fed. Had it not been for the Fed, neither case would have gone ahead. So whilst the police officers who lied have been dealt with, and severely, the MP who lied about an individual would have got away with it.
I expect she was furious, but that in no way would have affected her behaviour. No way at all.
In other words, the police, as a group and individually, has learned that depending on the good will and honesty of the government is a pretty stupid stance.
I think most senior officers would love to be able to leave politics and revert to their prime function but if they did, and didn't take a stand, the result would be that we would all blame command staff for not doing more.
By the way, I am one of those affected by the underpayment. The government, despite knowing about this for nearly 9 years, has still not paid me my due, despite agreeing, as they knew, that they had underpaid, and deliberately. They claim that they need time to work out individual cases. They've had 8+ years, but need more time. All they need is a spreadsheet, six entries, and the precise figure will be revealed. I was promised that I would be told how much I would be paid by mid October. I am still waiting. I am told that payments will start, start that is, in April next year. Since May this year, two officers who were underpaid have died. Their NoK will be the last to be funded.
Dishonest, corrupt and hiding money, that's what May suggested regarding the Fed funds. Good for a laugh, ain't it.
I agree, it is very much chicken and egg. And we are also in a new political era. Arguably that is a legacy of the end of the Cold War but that is a very long debate.
But someone has to break and it isn't the job of elected politicians to not be political. The police, ideally, should be appealing to the electorate in order to change the politicians. But have engaged in a conflict that they cannot possibly win.
What is alarming is that at the exact moment the police force need the support of the people the most they have alienated so many people who have always been their strongest supporters. People are seeing them as a political entity to be fought, instead of the vital national service that with others keep this country working.
But someone has to break and it isn't the job of elected politicians to not be political. The police, ideally, should be appealing to the electorate in order to change the politicians. But have engaged in a conflict that they cannot possibly win.
What is alarming is that at the exact moment the police force need the support of the people the most they have alienated so many people who have always been their strongest supporters. People are seeing them as a political entity to be fought, instead of the vital national service that with others keep this country working.
Don't agree with degree but they do seem to let anyone in now.
I'm going to sound sexist but I was stood between 2 women cops and both where about 25 and less than 5.6 tall.
Nice ladies and all and I do think we need women in the force but I did look and think what are they going to do breaking up a fight (was sat night) just call for back up I suppose.
My uncle could not get in years ago due to a slight lisp now some can't even use the English language, also you had to meet height standards etc.
All that has gone.
I'm going to sound sexist but I was stood between 2 women cops and both where about 25 and less than 5.6 tall.
Nice ladies and all and I do think we need women in the force but I did look and think what are they going to do breaking up a fight (was sat night) just call for back up I suppose.
My uncle could not get in years ago due to a slight lisp now some can't even use the English language, also you had to meet height standards etc.
All that has gone.
Derek Smith said:
The government, despite knowing about this for nearly 9 years, has still not paid me my due, despite agreeing, as they knew, that they had underpaid, and deliberately. They claim that they need time to work out individual cases. They've had 8+ years, but need more time. All they need is a spreadsheet, six entries, and the precise figure will be revealed]
I was arrested by mistaken identity and despite the Met acknowledging this almost immediately, it took over 9 years to get my record removed from the PNC! NINE fking YEARS!At least in your case, you are only awaiting some back pay. I missed out on a great opportunity to emigrate to Canada + shelved a lot of travel plans to the US as I wasnt ready to go before a consular to explain why I was arrested for fraud.
Derek Smith said:
DonkeyApple said:
Derek, maybe the politicals would still support the police as much as they used to if the upper ranks of the police hadn't become so political. And we are now seeing the same political problem within the armed forces.
It takes two to tango and as the modern police force likes to dabble in politics then they can't complain when the elected politicians decide to deal with them.
The police force would do well to bring the axe down on the senior staff who are politicised and revert to focussing on policing.
It takes two to tango and as the modern police force likes to dabble in politics then they can't complain when the elected politicians decide to deal with them.
The police force would do well to bring the axe down on the senior staff who are politicised and revert to focussing on policing.
It's a chicken and egg scenario though. My belief is that the police became politicised and then the senior ranks formed a block.
Whilst Blunkett didn't start it all, there is little doubt that he exacerbated an existing situation, one that is still extant. My belief is that he was inept, knew it and decided to bluff his way out by blaming the most convenient scapegoat, one that up until then, at least outside the Met, had been largely compliant and complacent. In those days it was the left that was anti police. Nowadays, if support is given by a contributor on Question Time to the service, there are dozens of posts to suggest that this is an example of left wing bias of the BBC.
May's level of antagonism towards the police gives no alternative but to form a protection group, unless you consider laying down and being kicked a reasonable course of action.
One particular instance is May's attack on the Federation funds. This is money, freely given to the Fed by individual officers. There is no requirement to pay it yet the Fed is required, by law, to provide a function, one that is not funded by the government. According to her is was all but stolen from the government.
I feel certain in my own mind, as any right thinking individual would I believe, consider that May's attack on the Federation has nothing to do with their funding of a civil case by one of their members, nor the funding of another civil case where the government have known for 8, going on for 9, years that retired fire officers and police officers had been underpaid. No, nothing at all to do with that.
The fire service, first to discover the underpayment, were unable to fund the case as there were unlikely to be costs awarded, and even if there were, they would not have come anywhere near the expenditure. They came to the Fed and joint funding was undertaken.
I feel certain that these two civil cases, funded by the Fed, and for those who hadn't paid into the fund as well, have absolutely nothing to do with May's vicious and misleading attack on the Fed. Had it not been for the Fed, neither case would have gone ahead. So whilst the police officers who lied have been dealt with, and severely, the MP who lied about an individual would have got away with it.
I expect she was furious, but that in no way would have affected her behaviour. No way at all.
In other words, the police, as a group and individually, has learned that depending on the good will and honesty of the government is a pretty stupid stance.
I think most senior officers would love to be able to leave politics and revert to their prime function but if they did, and didn't take a stand, the result would be that we would all blame command staff for not doing more.
By the way, I am one of those affected by the underpayment. The government, despite knowing about this for nearly 9 years, has still not paid me my due, despite agreeing, as they knew, that they had underpaid, and deliberately. They claim that they need time to work out individual cases. They've had 8+ years, but need more time. All they need is a spreadsheet, six entries, and the precise figure will be revealed. I was promised that I would be told how much I would be paid by mid October. I am still waiting. I am told that payments will start, start that is, in April next year. Since May this year, two officers who were underpaid have died. Their NoK will be the last to be funded.
Dishonest, corrupt and hiding money, that's what May suggested regarding the Fed funds. Good for a laugh, ain't it.
Exactly = still waiting for mine as are many others
Ilovejapcrap said:
Don't agree with degree but they do seem to let anyone in now.
I'm going to sound sexist but I was stood between 2 women cops and both where about 25 and less than 5.6 tall.
Nice ladies and all and I do think we need women in the force but I did look and think what are they going to do breaking up a fight (was sat night) just call for back up I suppose.
My uncle could not get in years ago due to a slight lisp now some can't even use the English language, also you had to meet height standards etc.
All that has gone.
Dont think female bobbies are no good in a knock. I've worked with many over the years who always get stuck in and drag a prisoner out of the mix. I'm going to sound sexist but I was stood between 2 women cops and both where about 25 and less than 5.6 tall.
Nice ladies and all and I do think we need women in the force but I did look and think what are they going to do breaking up a fight (was sat night) just call for back up I suppose.
My uncle could not get in years ago due to a slight lisp now some can't even use the English language, also you had to meet height standards etc.
All that has gone.
Pissed up fighting blokes also tend to listen to the female officers.
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