University degree required to join the police
Discussion
DonkeyApple said:
I agree, it is very much chicken and egg. And we are also in a new political era. Arguably that is a legacy of the end of the Cold War but that is a very long debate.
But someone has to break and it isn't the job of elected politicians to not be political. The police, ideally, should be appealing to the electorate in order to change the politicians. But have engaged in a conflict that they cannot possibly win.
What is alarming is that at the exact moment the police force need the support of the people the most they have alienated so many people who have always been their strongest supporters. People are seeing them as a political entity to be fought, instead of the vital national service that with others keep this country working.
I could not agree more about someone having to break the circle. All there has to be is the incentive.But someone has to break and it isn't the job of elected politicians to not be political. The police, ideally, should be appealing to the electorate in order to change the politicians. But have engaged in a conflict that they cannot possibly win.
What is alarming is that at the exact moment the police force need the support of the people the most they have alienated so many people who have always been their strongest supporters. People are seeing them as a political entity to be fought, instead of the vital national service that with others keep this country working.
But you say 'people' see the police as a political entity to fight. I don't agree. I believe that the government, and the right of the tory party, see criticism of the police a way to get their choice of PM in the seat.
In the past whenever there has been, let's say, friction there has been an independent inquiry and that has taken the sting out of the confrontation, but it is an MO that has passed its eatby date. The findings are never fully implemented and even when some are, they are ignored at a later date.
The problem with a Mexican stand-off is that neither side trusts the other. In this case, the government is not worried about trust as the police cannot harm them.
The bloke in charge of HMIC is a Cameron stooge. He's happy wearing his pretty uniform that he probably designed himself and overseeing the demolition of the service. The PCCs are political in the main and unlikely to form a unified front. In the case of tory PCCs, they are terrified of losing the tory whip. Labour don't want to be seen as supporting the police.
So that leaves ACPO. They no longer exist as they used to.
Everything is in the hands of the government.
Someone on here once said how brave May was to stand up to the Federation and tell them what for. As if the Fed can do anything. It can't retaliate, it can't do anything that can be construed as political as the Federation is a creation of the government and runs under government control. Very brave of May to attack a government department as such, and one that the government has ensured can't retaliate. What the poster probably meant was that May is not concerned with how well the police function but only on her own desire for command rank. Everything can be sacrificed on the alter of self promotion.
The problem from the police point of view is that they are now used in politics. Once law and order was seen as a right-wing vote winner. Since the coalition and now, it is seen as something to criticise and, let's accept, privatise. So no holds barred and no one to support them. If senior officers don't enter the political arena, who will? The answer is no one.
It is dreadful that the police are now used in politics to further the ends of the ambitious. Cameron, in saying that he will not go for reelection so early has meant an indecent squabble for primacy in the fight to replace him. He's already dissed May and so she has to get the right on her side. So she has become an extremist. As Home Sec. there is only one group for her to attack, and that is the police.
I'm not sure how the police command can back away. Sooner or later there will be riots. Or as we have seen this weekend, even worse. The police had problems coping in 2011, despite them being nowhere near as bad as painted. The only way the police can cope with public order problems over a period of time is by 'mutual aid'. The way my force was able to supply assistance in 2011, remember before any of the current reductions had bitten, was by closing various departments and splitting the workload.
So what will they do now? Close half the custody suites? That will free up a few officers and lots of civilians, G4S I believe now. That'll be a great help. Process units? Privatised. Take officers from traffic unit? That's a single car, often single crewed. Does anyone want me to list more? 'Cause I, and many serving officers no doubt, can.
So when the manure hits the fan, the senior officers, who will be blamed of course by May and the government, will need to show that they predicted the problems, pointed out that such a catastrophe would happen, and that the fault lies with the HomeSec who was more interested in her own promotion than promoting the police.
Department heads used to be criticised for supporting their specialties over the interest of others. Gove with schools and May with the police have not been subject to the same criticisms.
It was a sad day when the police became a target for the ambitious politician.
If there are riots just before the next election, with May being kicked into touch and easy to criticise, if the blame is fairly apportioned - you never know your luck - the voters might will opt for the only other possibility in this two-party state of ours. That's Corbyn for god's sake.
But then what is of more interest to you, sound financial management or being able to sleep safely in your bed?
We could well have a complete reversal of the old politics, with a left labour playing the public order card.
In my time the vast majority of police officers voted tory because they saw them as the party of law and order. I wonder is this has changed.
Sorry to go on, but this is important to me. I see reforms and improvements that were hard fought for being destroyed. The police service has had only one major reform in the post war years, and probably for much long, maybe even going back to 1919, and that was PACE, welcomed by serving officers in the main early on, and certainly after experience. The rank and file pushed for such changes as CCTV in custody suites and interviews. The rank and file, supported by current serving officers on here, want body cameras for all front line officers. Yet the police are continually painted as reactionary, staid and resistant to change.
PACE was the best thing that happened to the service in my time. It wasn't perfect, but it was a vast improvement. Quite remarkably good in fact. But it was 30 years ago and since them we have had major problems develop that the rank and file want changed, but the various governments have dragged their feet. Too difficult to do no doubt, what with all the concentration on promotion.
Merely reducing numbers is not reform, apart from it being a major step backwards, certain with regards to civilianisation. The police will be criticised soon for having too few civilians and then privatisation with be justified.
We already have private police forces patrolling the streets. That's reassuring.
Derek Smith said:
Bigends said:
Still waiting.
I feel most sorry for those who died without getting a chance to enjoy what was rightfully theirs.
Bigends said:
Nope - still waiting - ive got the calculation charts so know roughly what i'm owed - a number of colleagues haved also died - many very young who should have received the correct payment. Those retiring 18 months or so after me received massively larger sums - we just shrugged our shoulders and assumed there was a good reason behind it and wished them good luck - not realising we'd been well and truly lied to and subsequently underpaid. It took the fire brigade untion a seven year fight to get the Home office to agree the correct payments. My Chief Constable has become involved and has kicked pensions administrators arses and told them to get a move on. The cash is coming from central govt budget and NOT Police budgets.
Have you a link to the calculation charts or any chance of sending them through to me?Derek
Greendubber said:
Ilovejapcrap said:
Don't agree with degree but they do seem to let anyone in now.
I'm going to sound sexist but I was stood between 2 women cops and both where about 25 and less than 5.6 tall.
Nice ladies and all and I do think we need women in the force but I did look and think what are they going to do breaking up a fight (was sat night) just call for back up I suppose.
My uncle could not get in years ago due to a slight lisp now some can't even use the English language, also you had to meet height standards etc.
All that has gone.
Dont think female bobbies are no good in a knock. I've worked with many over the years who always get stuck in and drag a prisoner out of the mix. I'm going to sound sexist but I was stood between 2 women cops and both where about 25 and less than 5.6 tall.
Nice ladies and all and I do think we need women in the force but I did look and think what are they going to do breaking up a fight (was sat night) just call for back up I suppose.
My uncle could not get in years ago due to a slight lisp now some can't even use the English language, also you had to meet height standards etc.
All that has gone.
Pissed up fighting blokes also tend to listen to the female officers.
but about biomechanics and using people;s actions or strength against them ...
it doesn;t matter if you are 7 stone or 27 stone a well placed knee strike with put your opponenet to the floor
Derek Smith said:
May's level of antagonism towards the police gives no alternative but to form a protection group, unless you consider laying down and being kicked a reasonable course of action.
Remind us how many police were sacked and/or imprisoned for attempting to subvert the function of government & depose a cabinet official. Is that what you mean by 'protection'? Plebgate gave them plenty of justification for slapping down any attempts by the police to dabble in political intrigue.Derek Smith said:
I feel certain in my own mind, as any right thinking individual would
So anyone thinking the same as you is right & anyone with a contrary opinion is wrong? I detest the phrase 'right thinking people'.Derek Smith said:
In other words, the police, as a group and individually, has learned that depending on the good will and honesty of the government is a pretty stupid stance.
It's sad to say that the current government probably has greater public trust than the police. You might wish to address that.Rovinghawk said:
It's sad to say that the current government probably has greater public trust than the police. You might wish to address that.
Keep dreaming.Public trust in politicians is very low. Public trust in the police is relatively high.
This government intends to decimate the police for its own reasons.
Police numbers in England and Wales are around 120,000.
Police numbers in France (a country with a comparable population) are near 300,000. Most French police are also armed.
Government want to cut police numbers in this England and Wales to 80,000.
Welcome to the real world.
Edited by Red 4 on Sunday 15th November 23:43
Eclassy said:
scamera vans
NOT "scamera vans". "Life-saving vans". People express racist outrage at 120-odd deaths caused by immigrants who don't know any better because of their culture (and who are only doing what they do because of Islamophobia), but then think it's big and clever and fashionable to use immature names to refer to those who are doing us all a favour trying to reduce the THOUSANDS of deaths a year caused by those who absolutely SHOULD know better, because they were BORN here, TEARING about the place.What's worse? 120 deaths or THOUSANDS of deaths? Try going up to the mother of a child who's been MOWN DOWN by a SPEEDING DRIVER and tell her they're "scamera vans". You'll rightly get a SLAP. Whereas I would tell her they were "DEATH-REDUCING VANS" and she would then know I was a better person than YOU. Those who say "SCAMERA VAN" are in fact saying "I HAVE BLOOD ON MY HANDS".
STOP SPEEDING! WHY IS IT SO HARD TO STOP BEING SO SELFISH?!?!??!?
Red 4 said:
Rovinghawk said:
It's sad to say that the current government probably has greater public trust than the police. You might wish to address that.
Keep dreaming.Public trust in politicians is very low. Public trust in the police is relatively high.
This government intends to decimate the police for its own reasons.
Police numbers in England and Wales are around 120,000.
Police numbers in France (a country with a comparable population) are near 300,000. Most French police are also armed.
Government want to cut police numbers in this England and Wales to 80,000.
Welcome to the real world.
La Liga said:
Rovinghawk said:
It's sad to say that the current government probably has greater public trust than the police. You might wish to address that.
And you've "probably" just made that up because it's what you want to be the case. 
Plc vs Gov.
V8 Fettler said:
What reasons are these?
As he said, their own.However, one might make guesses.
Cameron was a major part of the largely derided Sheehey report. He's now had one of his little minions produce an entirely independent and identical report plus much harder on the police. For that he was given a pretty uniform and placed in a position of power where one might expect criticism of the attack on the police.
The intent is to privatise the police. Is there any argument against that? Surely not by any right thinking people. Or those with a bit of savvy.
It is very much Cameron. Before he came to his limited power 10 years ago the police was seen as a positive by the right. Now any attack on it is seen as a positive for those after the top job.
As I said, guesses. But I believe it is inspired by Cameron, and that it might well be as a result of his upbringing.
The spin merchants come out whenever the there is something police oriented. That is, they tell lies and the gullible and the committed often accept them without challenge. Remember the outrage on here when the Federation was revealed to have funds that were freely given by the rank and file? Five years ago those bashing the police would have been seen on these forums as sad, deluded and a lefty. Not like a true blue who knows full well that the public trust politicians more than they do the police. That's a good one. Quite funny, or would be if it wasn't so indicative of a certain group.
I am wary of politicians, and I don't trust Cameron. I get the feeling that it is personal.
I don't like saying I told you so (that's spin, I love it) but who would have thought that the privatisation of the parking regulations and later some aspects of speeding would lead to prosecutions for the sole purpose of fund raising? I did. So when I say that for those who reckon that the Cameron point of view is right and the police are a waste of money, you wait for privatisation. Then think back to this post.
When the next round of riots happen, and the service is unable to cope, think back to this post. Or rather, don't bother 'cause I'll bring it up.
Do you know, it is almost as if Cameron expects to get money back from any company that he decides will have the contract for policing. It is almost as if he thinks it will be cheaper, but then he knows it won't be.
As pointed out by another poster, England and Wales are already under policed when compared to France and Germany. We were under policed before Cameron started slashing numbers. We were under policed when the 2011 riots occurred. Soon there will be more than 40% fewer police officers than there were in 2011. Think on that.
Spin is great until we have baying mobs outside our houses, looting and torching. Any failure will be put down to poor policing and used as a reason for privatisation. Some will believe it, the usual suspects. Or, of course, if it comes right in the middle of the fight for the leader of the tories then it will be blamed on May, so some hope there for the police.
The person who should be standing up to May and Cameron was given his little sinecure by Cameron, his 30 pieces of silver (add inflation to that). The PCCs are mostly political appointees and are terrified of losing their nice little earner for very little work so they'll say nothing. ACPO no longer exists as such and was never anti government. And the Federation is part of the political control of the rank and file. There is no PR for those who are worried about what will be the destruction of the service.
Just to clarify: funding will be down by 40%. That will mean greater than 40% reduction in police officers as some costs are constant. My force was obliged to PFI some functions. When the staffing levels plummet to their minimum, the private company running prosecutions will still be paid despite there being a drop in workload. And there are other stable costs. I reckon it will be down to around 50% reduction, always on the assumption that the riots don't occur first.
CarsAreBad2572 said:
Eclassy said:
scamera vans
NOT "scamera vans". "Life-saving vans". People express racist outrage at 120-odd deaths caused by immigrants who don't know any better because of their culture (and who are only doing what they do because of Islamophobia), but then think it's big and clever and fashionable to use immature names to refer to those who are doing us all a favour trying to reduce the THOUSANDS of deaths a year caused by those who absolutely SHOULD know better, because they were BORN here, TEARING about the place.What's worse? 120 deaths or THOUSANDS of deaths? Try going up to the mother of a child who's been MOWN DOWN by a SPEEDING DRIVER and tell her they're "scamera vans". You'll rightly get a SLAP. Whereas I would tell her they were "DEATH-REDUCING VANS" and she would then know I was a better person than YOU. Those who say "SCAMERA VAN" are in fact saying "I HAVE BLOOD ON MY HANDS".
STOP SPEEDING! WHY IS IT SO HARD TO STOP BEING SO SELFISH?!?!??!?
Less caps please and don't post during your red time.
Maybe private security services are the way forward. It kind of works in other poor countries. UK is poor now. There will obviously be a bit of corruption, extra costs to you or business owners if you want the mafia style protection at gold level.
I think it's about the equivalent of 200 pounds a month for protection here. They are very quick, most look like the hulk and they arrive in hummers with full body armour and battens. There is still a standard police force in place.
I think it's about the equivalent of 200 pounds a month for protection here. They are very quick, most look like the hulk and they arrive in hummers with full body armour and battens. There is still a standard police force in place.
deltashad said:
Maybe private security services are the way forward. It kind of works in other poor countries. UK is poor now. There will obviously be a bit of corruption, extra costs to you or business owners if you want the mafia style protection at gold level.
I think it's about the equivalent of 200 pounds a month for protection here. They are very quick, most look like the hulk and they arrive in hummers with full body armour and battens. There is still a standard police force in place.
Just think back to what a great job private security firm G4S did during the olympics....I think it's about the equivalent of 200 pounds a month for protection here. They are very quick, most look like the hulk and they arrive in hummers with full body armour and battens. There is still a standard police force in place.
From one of the venues I ended up on 3 of them were locked up for theft and about 9 were illegal over stayers. Cant wait for them to start keeping an eye on my street.....
CarsAreBad2572 said:
NOT "scamera vans". "Life-saving vans". People express racist outrage at 120-odd deaths caused by immigrants who don't know any better because of their culture (and who are only doing what they do because of Islamophobia), but then think it's big and clever and fashionable to use immature names to refer to those who are doing us all a favour trying to reduce the THOUSANDS of deaths a year caused by those who absolutely SHOULD know better, because they were BORN here, TEARING about the place.
What's worse? 120 deaths or THOUSANDS of deaths? Try going up to the mother of a child who's been MOWN DOWN by a SPEEDING DRIVER and tell her they're "scamera vans". You'll rightly get a SLAP. Whereas I would tell her they were "DEATH-REDUCING VANS" and she would then know I was a better person than YOU. Those who say "SCAMERA VAN" are in fact saying "I HAVE BLOOD ON MY HANDS".
STOP SPEEDING! WHY IS IT SO HARD TO STOP BEING SO SELFISH?!?!??!?
Either you're a troll, or you have a pathologically warped sense of values.What's worse? 120 deaths or THOUSANDS of deaths? Try going up to the mother of a child who's been MOWN DOWN by a SPEEDING DRIVER and tell her they're "scamera vans". You'll rightly get a SLAP. Whereas I would tell her they were "DEATH-REDUCING VANS" and she would then know I was a better person than YOU. Those who say "SCAMERA VAN" are in fact saying "I HAVE BLOOD ON MY HANDS".
STOP SPEEDING! WHY IS IT SO HARD TO STOP BEING SO SELFISH?!?!??!?
Anyone who equates breaking the speed limit with committing terrorist atrocities is really not worth debating anything with.
You need help - seriously!
Edited by Pete317 on Monday 16th November 12:41
Derek Smith said:
V8 Fettler said:
What reasons are these?
As he said, their own.However, one might make guesses.
Cameron was a major part of the largely derided Sheehey report. He's now had one of his little minions produce an entirely independent and identical report plus much harder on the police. For that he was given a pretty uniform and placed in a position of power where one might expect criticism of the attack on the police.
The intent is to privatise the police. Is there any argument against that? Surely not by any right thinking people. Or those with a bit of savvy.
It is very much Cameron. Before he came to his limited power 10 years ago the police was seen as a positive by the right. Now any attack on it is seen as a positive for those after the top job.
As I said, guesses. But I believe it is inspired by Cameron, and that it might well be as a result of his upbringing.
The spin merchants come out whenever the there is something police oriented. That is, they tell lies and the gullible and the committed often accept them without challenge. Remember the outrage on here when the Federation was revealed to have funds that were freely given by the rank and file? Five years ago those bashing the police would have been seen on these forums as sad, deluded and a lefty. Not like a true blue who knows full well that the public trust politicians more than they do the police. That's a good one. Quite funny, or would be if it wasn't so indicative of a certain group.
I am wary of politicians, and I don't trust Cameron. I get the feeling that it is personal.
I don't like saying I told you so (that's spin, I love it) but who would have thought that the privatisation of the parking regulations and later some aspects of speeding would lead to prosecutions for the sole purpose of fund raising? I did. So when I say that for those who reckon that the Cameron point of view is right and the police are a waste of money, you wait for privatisation. Then think back to this post.
When the next round of riots happen, and the service is unable to cope, think back to this post. Or rather, don't bother 'cause I'll bring it up.
Do you know, it is almost as if Cameron expects to get money back from any company that he decides will have the contract for policing. It is almost as if he thinks it will be cheaper, but then he knows it won't be.
As pointed out by another poster, England and Wales are already under policed when compared to France and Germany. We were under policed before Cameron started slashing numbers. We were under policed when the 2011 riots occurred. Soon there will be more than 40% fewer police officers than there were in 2011. Think on that.
Spin is great until we have baying mobs outside our houses, looting and torching. Any failure will be put down to poor policing and used as a reason for privatisation. Some will believe it, the usual suspects. Or, of course, if it comes right in the middle of the fight for the leader of the tories then it will be blamed on May, so some hope there for the police.
The person who should be standing up to May and Cameron was given his little sinecure by Cameron, his 30 pieces of silver (add inflation to that). The PCCs are mostly political appointees and are terrified of losing their nice little earner for very little work so they'll say nothing. ACPO no longer exists as such and was never anti government. And the Federation is part of the political control of the rank and file. There is no PR for those who are worried about what will be the destruction of the service.
Just to clarify: funding will be down by 40%. That will mean greater than 40% reduction in police officers as some costs are constant. My force was obliged to PFI some functions. When the staffing levels plummet to their minimum, the private company running prosecutions will still be paid despite there being a drop in workload. And there are other stable costs. I reckon it will be down to around 50% reduction, always on the assumption that the riots don't occur first.
Although it's a lagging indicator, how have crime statistics changed over the last few years of cuts?
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