NSL - 60 or 70mph

Author
Discussion

ModernAndy

2,094 posts

135 months

Tuesday 17th November 2015
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jshell said:
About 300m, NSL, not posted as 70mph. Prevents Northbound traffic turning right at the junction.
definitely more an island than a proper separation between the carriageways then.

Cliftonite

8,408 posts

138 months

Tuesday 17th November 2015
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VX Foxy said:
It's worrying that people with driving licenses don't know the answer to this.
Licences.

HTH.

smile



Cliftonite

8,408 posts

138 months

Tuesday 17th November 2015
quotequote all
ModernAndy said:
jshell said:
About 300m, NSL, not posted as 70mph. Prevents Northbound traffic turning right at the junction.
definitely more an island than a proper separation between the carriageways then.
It is dual carriageway. 70 mph if safe.


GPSHead

657 posts

241 months

Tuesday 17th November 2015
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V8LM said:
speedking31 said:
V8LM said:
Mr E said:
What's the speed limit on a single lane, one way NSL road (as there's no chance of oncoming traffic)?
60.
Motorway slip roads?
Within the start and end signs the carriageway is deemed to be a motorway - once past the start sign on the slip road you are on a motorway, once past the end sign on the slip you are not. Whether you are then deemed to be on a dual carriageway or one way carriageway is an interesting question. I suspect the latter, where a NSL limit would apply unless indicated differently.
There used to be a single-carriageway, 2-lane motorway called the A6144(M) near Manchester, and surprisingly its limit was 70mph. The "dual carriageway = 70, single carriageway = 60" distinction only applies to non-motorway roads. So motorway slip roads (and indeed motorways where one carriageway is longer than the other) are definitely 70mph unless otherwise signed.

A poster above has posted a photo of the A38(M) in Birmingham (the tidal one with 3 normal lanes each side and a red one in the middle). I believe this has a permanent 50mph limit, but if it was NSL then it would be 70mph as well.

Not many NSL multi-lane single carriageways left now anyway. Apparently it's a better idea to remark them as 2 lanes with hatching, and have everyone stuck behind lorries and the 40 Everywhere Brigade (or risk driving on debris on the hatching).

ModernAndy

2,094 posts

135 months

Tuesday 17th November 2015
quotequote all
Cliftonite said:
ModernAndy said:
jshell said:
About 300m, NSL, not posted as 70mph. Prevents Northbound traffic turning right at the junction.
definitely more an island than a proper separation between the carriageways then.
It is dual carriageway. 70 mph if safe.
I'm not 100% sure of my position but see the bold text below.

Schedule 6 Part 1 Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984

Part IV of said schedule is the interpretation part and defines Dual carriageway as-

a road part of which consists of a central reservation to separate a carriageway to be used by vehicles proceding in one direction froma a carrieway to be used by vehicles proceeding in the opposite direction.

Central reservation is not further defined but is so at Traffic Signs and General Directions 2002 : -

"central reservation" means -

(a) any land between the carriageways of a road comprising two carriageways; or

(b) any permanent work (other than a traffic island) in the carriageway of a road

V8LM

5,174 posts

209 months

Tuesday 17th November 2015
quotequote all
GPSHead said:
So motorway slip roads (and indeed motorways where one carriageway is longer than the other) are definitely 70mph unless otherwise signed.
Within the signage defining the start and end of the motorway, yes.

WJNB

2,637 posts

161 months

Tuesday 17th November 2015
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T5R+ said:
Debate raging in office - if in a NSL with 2 lanes in one direction and 2 in opposing with no physical barrier (or divide) - what is the max permitted speed limit in a car, 60 or 70mph?

(In the interests of honesty - I am in the 60mph camp until educated otherwise).
Very wise. After all what are you going to do with the time saved by risking 70mph? Discretion is so often the better part of valour & you sure 'ain't gonner win any argument with a know-it-all traffic plod.

VX Foxy

3,962 posts

243 months

Tuesday 17th November 2015
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Cliftonite said:
Licences.
Yes. Thank you. Excuse me, just popping out. I may be gone for some time...

VX Foxy

3,962 posts

243 months

Tuesday 17th November 2015
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Cliftonite said:
It is dual carriageway. 70 mph if safe.
No. It's just a traffic island. NSL = 60

Cliftonite

8,408 posts

138 months

Tuesday 17th November 2015
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VX Foxy said:
Cliftonite said:
It is dual carriageway. 70 mph if safe.
No. It's just a traffic island. NSL = 60
Looks like a duck, quacks like a dck, IS a dc.

There are two carriageways.

https://youtu.be/kQFKtI6gn9Y



BertBert

19,039 posts

211 months

Tuesday 17th November 2015
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Haven't seen that in years. Fantastic.

It is a DC BTW.

VX Foxy

3,962 posts

243 months

Tuesday 17th November 2015
quotequote all
Cliftonite said:
VX Foxy said:
Cliftonite said:
It is dual carriageway. 70 mph if safe.
No. It's just a traffic island. NSL = 60
Looks like a duck, quacks like a dck, IS a dc.
There are two carriageways.

https://youtu.be/kQFKtI6gn9Y
Well, doesn't look like a dc to me, it looks like a traffic island. My view is supported by the lack of speed limit signs and lack of dc ahead signs.
Not a dc. Happy* to be corrected with facts.



-*not very, I hate being wrong!

ModernAndy

2,094 posts

135 months

Wednesday 18th November 2015
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I tried to find legislation around the legal definition of a traffic island last night but couldn't find anything relevant. I suspect it's not black and white in this case but unless there's signage to denote that it is in fact a dual carriageway, I believe that the separation between the roads should be considered as an island, especially as the road stays 1 lane each way and there are junctions.

Swervin_Mervin

4,452 posts

238 months

Wednesday 18th November 2015
quotequote all
It is an island. Nothing else. I've just designed one for a scheme. It's to ensure that the junction operates as a left in/left out, with no right-turning.

There are no signs to indicate it's d/c either, which is what you would expect to see on roads where sections of d/c drop in and out.

It's bloody worrying that even motoring/driving enthusiasts can't get their head around this.


BertBert

19,039 posts

211 months

Wednesday 18th November 2015
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Swervin_Mervin said:
It's bloody worrying that even motoring/driving enthusiasts can't get their head around this.
Could you help us then with what counts as a central reservation and what doesn't?

Johnnytheboy

24,498 posts

186 months

Wednesday 18th November 2015
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There are usually "Dual Carriageway Ahead" at the start and merge signs at the end.


FiF

44,084 posts

251 months

Wednesday 18th November 2015
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Agree with the sentiments that it's worrying that even on a motoring enthusiast website so many get so much wrong.

Firstly a dual carriageway does not need dual carriageway ahead signs etc to make it a legal dc. Callaghan from Cumbria camera lot tried that one years ago and he had his arse handed to him. Then he cleared off and called himself something else.

Secondly that section as shown of the A9, the one with lots of different coloured tarmac and a few poles down the middle is definitively a single carriageway. I don't care how many posters express opinions that it's other land, you are simply wrong. It's the same land not "other" land. This phrase allows, for example, an area of grass without kerbs to be considered as a central reservation. I think these roads with a simple grass strip are few and far between now but nevertheless still legal dc. Obviously a grass strip down the middle of a country lane doesn't count, not separating carriageway for travel in one direction from another carriageway for travel in opposite direction see?

Fly in all the ointment is that there is no legal definition of traffic island. Not even in the design manual, which are only guidelines anyway. Personally where I am on a DC and get to where the central reservation has a gap for a potential crossover I don't slow down, unless it's a junction and there's other traffic about in which case will have pegged it back anyway. So in that case it's moot.

VX Foxy

3,962 posts

243 months

Wednesday 18th November 2015
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BertBert said:
Could you help us then with what counts as a central reservation and what doesn't?
Central reservation separates the carriageways. The section in question is a traffic island. As the man who designs them says, it's not difficult.

HTH

VX Foxy

3,962 posts

243 months

Wednesday 18th November 2015
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SEOT thumbup

FiF

44,084 posts

251 months

Wednesday 18th November 2015
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[redacted]