Reasons for non payment of invoice?
Discussion
I recently received an official order for goods from a national organisation, whom I have done work for before on a very occasional basis... three jobs over a space of 6 years.
I supplied and invoiced the goods to the address indicated, but yesterday received an email which said:
There was no mention of this on the order they had sent me which was filled in by the agent at one of their properties, so my question is, can they really withhold my money (£70) if I were to refuse to follow this new procedure? It certainly wasn't worth the time it eventually took!
I DID complete the registration, but it took 75 minutes to do so, due in part to my service/product not being listed in an extensive list from which you had to choose from, which involved searching multiple drop down sub divisions trying to find one that suited, and you could not move on to the next screen until it was completed.
There was also a fault in the process (which they warned of in their email), in that pre-populated information could not be changed until after the form was completed, then you could go back and edit it!
I have emailed them back, and told them to pay my invoice, then delete all of the data they collected and not to bother sending me any more work, and I have cancelled a subsequent order which arrived this week and told them I won't do any more work for them - but I am still annoyed by the threat to not pay if I didn't register, and wondered if I could have insisted on payment without the rigmarole of registering.
I supplied and invoiced the goods to the address indicated, but yesterday received an email which said:
Customer email said:
Dear Supplier
We have been asked to set you up on our system as a new supplier and as the N******* ****t manages its supplier details and tenders on a Sourcing Portal known as Proactis, we would like you to register on this Portal to ensure we can place orders with you and pay your invoices. If you do not register we will be unable to make payments to you and any invoices already issued will remain unpaid.my emboldening
Proactis offers a number of benefits, including helping us to ensure a smooth payment process. Please use this link to complete your registration. It should not take you long to enter the basic information we need.
There was then a link which took me to a page to fill in information such as my unique tax reference number, VAT number etc.We have been asked to set you up on our system as a new supplier and as the N******* ****t manages its supplier details and tenders on a Sourcing Portal known as Proactis, we would like you to register on this Portal to ensure we can place orders with you and pay your invoices. If you do not register we will be unable to make payments to you and any invoices already issued will remain unpaid.my emboldening
Proactis offers a number of benefits, including helping us to ensure a smooth payment process. Please use this link to complete your registration. It should not take you long to enter the basic information we need.
There was no mention of this on the order they had sent me which was filled in by the agent at one of their properties, so my question is, can they really withhold my money (£70) if I were to refuse to follow this new procedure? It certainly wasn't worth the time it eventually took!
I DID complete the registration, but it took 75 minutes to do so, due in part to my service/product not being listed in an extensive list from which you had to choose from, which involved searching multiple drop down sub divisions trying to find one that suited, and you could not move on to the next screen until it was completed.
There was also a fault in the process (which they warned of in their email), in that pre-populated information could not be changed until after the form was completed, then you could go back and edit it!
I have emailed them back, and told them to pay my invoice, then delete all of the data they collected and not to bother sending me any more work, and I have cancelled a subsequent order which arrived this week and told them I won't do any more work for them - but I am still annoyed by the threat to not pay if I didn't register, and wondered if I could have insisted on payment without the rigmarole of registering.
I have recently had similar experiences, clients asking me to sign forms/log in to websites asking me to file my co as a vendor of theirs....I have refused all 'invitations' as in my business there are too many liability issues if I (god forbid) enter wrong details and funds do not arrive where they should ( Industry practice is to provide banking details, its then up to the client to get funds to us) In all instances I was told it would be damaging,and lead to delays in receiving payments, it has not proved so, they were just trying to strongarm me into doing their remittance work for them.
wibble cb said:
I have recently had similar experiences, clients asking me to sign forms/log in to websites asking me to file my co as a vendor of theirs....I have refused all 'invitations' as in my business there are too many liability issues if I (god forbid) enter wrong details and funds do not arrive where they should ( Industry practice is to provide banking details, its then up to the client to get funds to us) In all instances I was told it would be damaging,and lead to delays in receiving payments, it has not proved so, they were just trying to strongarm me into doing their remittance work for them.
Exactly - it is designed to reduce THEIR costs by passing them onto you.clients webpage said:
The N******* T**** is introducing a new supplier management system, Proactis. This will help us work efficiently with our suppliers and make sure we hold accurate and up-to-date information. Our registered suppliers will also have access to all tender opportunities for us and other organisations engaged with them via Proactis. And by operating more efficiently, we’ll be better positioned to support our cause.
We’ll write to our suppliers with details when we’re ready to start trading with them via Proactis, and they won’t need to take any action before then. If you are a prospective supplier who would like to tender your goods or services to the National Trust, please register on Proactis now at www.proactisplaza.com.
Sending it out AFTER they have been invoiced is not on, and I don't tender - they contact me when they need me!We’ll write to our suppliers with details when we’re ready to start trading with them via Proactis, and they won’t need to take any action before then. If you are a prospective supplier who would like to tender your goods or services to the National Trust, please register on Proactis now at www.proactisplaza.com.
Our local council has a similar system which I refused to engage with - now they send me an order just as they always did, because I am cheaper and better than people who tendered and won in the past!
I'm probably cheaper because I'm not wasting my time with the tendering process!
For £70 its a pain and it will cost more to recover. Welcome to the world of efficency and cost cutting, enforced by Procurement department staffed by degree hungry juniors, with bright ( dim) ideas.
I've had this with a few organisations, as my role is quite specific I can and do run rings round them, I do a proforma invoice for them to pay me to access their system, funny how it works when they want work doing urgently.
I've had this with a few organisations, as my role is quite specific I can and do run rings round them, I do a proforma invoice for them to pay me to access their system, funny how it works when they want work doing urgently.
I take it there was no mention of this process BEFORE the request was made i.e. before the contract? If so, no, you have no obligation to follow their now imposed process. Call/Write to them and give them seven days to pay your invoice, noting that you are not in a position to use the system they now ask you to.
Mill Wheel said:
I have emailed them back, and told them to pay my invoice, then delete all of the data they collected and not to bother sending me any more work, and I have cancelled a subsequent order which arrived this week and told them I won't do any more work for them - but I am still annoyed by the threat to not pay if I didn't register, and wondered if I could have insisted on payment without the rigmarole of registering.
Is that not now shooting yourself in the foot after going to the trouble of filling in your details already?Surely a system such as that will be easier to use after the initial hassle?
We have a similar system at work, but there is a 'manual payment' option for small, irregular payments.
If it's a decent sized company, they should have a similar function/process available.
Just hope your payment terms are better than the end of month + 90 days most of our suppliers get given.
If it's a decent sized company, they should have a similar function/process available.
Just hope your payment terms are better than the end of month + 90 days most of our suppliers get given.
Blanchimont said:
They're being lazy. They can input the details themselves, I've used Proactis.
My company is on literally three dozen local authority databases. Each one had a different form to fill in. Half would not accept online submission, it needed something being posted back and forth. Our invoices have the following already on it:
Company name.
Company trading address, and registered office.
Company registration number.
VAT registration number.
Email address for invoice queries.
Telephone number for invoice queries.
Contact person for invoice queries.
The process we must follow it to take all of those details from our invoice we've already supplied to them, and handwrite then onto their form, and fax or post it to them.
Then, they take those handwritten details copied from the invoice the already have, and they type them into their system.
Believe me, I have attempted to explain the waste of resources in this approach, however, not once have they succumbed to common sense. Hence, I accept the futility of arguing and accept that this is why public sector administration haemorrhages money, and do it to get paid.
barryrs said:
Mill Wheel said:
I have emailed them back, and told them to pay my invoice, then delete all of the data they collected and not to bother sending me any more work, and I have cancelled a subsequent order which arrived this week and told them I won't do any more work for them - but I am still annoyed by the threat to not pay if I didn't register, and wondered if I could have insisted on payment without the rigmarole of registering.
Is that not now shooting yourself in the foot after going to the trouble of filling in your details already?Surely a system such as that will be easier to use after the initial hassle?
They have never sent me enough work for it to make any huge difference to my turnover.
I have made labels that end up in Hawk Jets, and even their system is simple - there is simply no need for this sort of procedure unless you are bidding for contracts work tens or hundreds of thousands of pounds.
When I told Scottish Power I would not use their system, I got an email telling me to just phone up an office where they could just bypass the whole procedure, so SOMEBODY is on the ball somewhere!
I did a job for a UK charity a couple of years ago, and had a similar issue, with them demanding my Unique Tax Reference Number before they would pay.
I made enquiries regarding this, as the invoice was a much higher amount than above, and sent them the info. I uncovered, which might be of interest to others reading here who have been asked for their UTR No.
I made enquiries regarding this, as the invoice was a much higher amount than above, and sent them the info. I uncovered, which might be of interest to others reading here who have been asked for their UTR No.
Tax Advisors info said:
There is no requirement to reveal the number and to do so could pose a security risk if the data were to fall into the wrong hands.
A********’s advise me that the situation has been misunderstood at your head office, and offered this explanation to your organisation:
It (UTR No.) is only a requirement for anyone paying sub contractors under the Construction Industry Scheme.
Under this scheme all new sub contractors need to be verified with HMRC before they are paid, to ensure they pay tax on any money paid to them for their services. If they fail to provide a UTR number, they may be paid with tax deducted at emergency rate.
To verify a sub contractor pays tax, HMRC require the sub contractors UTR number.
WE are not subject to the Construction Industry Scheme – we have been asked to supply GOODS (on which VAT was charged, therefore our VAT number is sufficient to verify that the VAT invoice is bona fide).
I was further told that asking for the UTR is common, but not correct unless related to the construction industry scheme.
There exists a separate HMRC service that enables parties to a contract to check their tax credentials for businesses not subject to the Construction Industry Scheme that may carry out work on [your] premises – for instance a church that employs a contractor to maintain it’s clock.
It is called the Employment Status Indicator, and I include details of this for your accounts department at head office. http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/calcs/esi.htm
I got paid, and got an apology from the accounts department!A********’s advise me that the situation has been misunderstood at your head office, and offered this explanation to your organisation:
It (UTR No.) is only a requirement for anyone paying sub contractors under the Construction Industry Scheme.
Under this scheme all new sub contractors need to be verified with HMRC before they are paid, to ensure they pay tax on any money paid to them for their services. If they fail to provide a UTR number, they may be paid with tax deducted at emergency rate.
To verify a sub contractor pays tax, HMRC require the sub contractors UTR number.
WE are not subject to the Construction Industry Scheme – we have been asked to supply GOODS (on which VAT was charged, therefore our VAT number is sufficient to verify that the VAT invoice is bona fide).
I was further told that asking for the UTR is common, but not correct unless related to the construction industry scheme.
There exists a separate HMRC service that enables parties to a contract to check their tax credentials for businesses not subject to the Construction Industry Scheme that may carry out work on [your] premises – for instance a church that employs a contractor to maintain it’s clock.
It is called the Employment Status Indicator, and I include details of this for your accounts department at head office. http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/calcs/esi.htm
I had something very similar happen.
The customer claimed that they couldn't pay unless we provided more paperwork. I explained that they could pay, and if they didn't believe me, then I would get a judge to explain it to them.
They paid.
They cannot add conditions to the contract just because the feel like it.
The customer claimed that they couldn't pay unless we provided more paperwork. I explained that they could pay, and if they didn't believe me, then I would get a judge to explain it to them.
They paid.
They cannot add conditions to the contract just because the feel like it.
don4l said:
I had something very similar happen.
The customer claimed that they couldn't pay unless we provided more paperwork. I explained that they could pay, and if they didn't believe me, then I would get a judge to explain it to them.
They paid.
They cannot add conditions to the contract just because the feel like it.
I have retrieved the original order, with the terms and conditions in small print on the reverse (A4!) and there is NOTHING other than an undertaking to settle the account by the end of the following month...The customer claimed that they couldn't pay unless we provided more paperwork. I explained that they could pay, and if they didn't believe me, then I would get a judge to explain it to them.
They paid.
They cannot add conditions to the contract just because the feel like it.
Ts and Cs said:
6 PAYMENT
6.1 Unless otherwise stated by NT, NT shall pay the price of the Goods and the Services by the end of the month following that in which a correct invoice is received by NT at its Transaction Processing Unit or, if later, by the end of the month following that in which the Goods or Services are accepted.
6.2 Time of payment shall not be of the essence.
6.3 NT may set off against the price any sums owed to NT by the Supplier.
6.1 Unless otherwise stated by NT, NT shall pay the price of the Goods and the Services by the end of the month following that in which a correct invoice is received by NT at its Transaction Processing Unit or, if later, by the end of the month following that in which the Goods or Services are accepted.
6.2 Time of payment shall not be of the essence.
6.3 NT may set off against the price any sums owed to NT by the Supplier.
Hmm. I thought I replied to this earlier, but can't see my post.
We deliver consultancy services to the construction industry and the big house builders and construction companies pull this trick all the time.
Typically we will send out a contract for the work which is accepted. We do the work, issue the paperwork and invoice. Then a month or so later the client comes back and says, 'Oh no we couldn't possibly pay you for the work unless you jump through all sorts of stuff, sign up to online portals and sign up additional terms and condition'.
We then get into a stalemate situation as their terms are often irrelevant (but still potentially damaging) and the paperwork causes all sorts of issues.
If we work for a big construction company now we demand fees in advance. Sure we have lost a few jobs, but we offer a fairly unique service. There is no way we a doing a £2k site visit and then spending six months on and off chasing paperwork in circles. The big boys don't like it, but that is the only way we will now do business with them.
We deliver consultancy services to the construction industry and the big house builders and construction companies pull this trick all the time.
Typically we will send out a contract for the work which is accepted. We do the work, issue the paperwork and invoice. Then a month or so later the client comes back and says, 'Oh no we couldn't possibly pay you for the work unless you jump through all sorts of stuff, sign up to online portals and sign up additional terms and condition'.
We then get into a stalemate situation as their terms are often irrelevant (but still potentially damaging) and the paperwork causes all sorts of issues.
If we work for a big construction company now we demand fees in advance. Sure we have lost a few jobs, but we offer a fairly unique service. There is no way we a doing a £2k site visit and then spending six months on and off chasing paperwork in circles. The big boys don't like it, but that is the only way we will now do business with them.
No response to my demand for payment yet, but today I got a phone call from their agent who ordered the work, and who had placed a subsequent order, and he has reconfirmed his second order, and will pay by site credit card to ensure it's delivery.
Apparently I am not the only small supplier to point out the unnecessary complexity of the system, and not the first to refuse to supply goods to them because of it.
Apparently I am not the only small supplier to point out the unnecessary complexity of the system, and not the first to refuse to supply goods to them because of it.
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