Reasonable force?

[LoonR1]

FurryExocet said:

Armed police deal with general police duties every day and the guns don't get used, so I'm not sure it would make much difference (in relation to tie comment about guns being used on none terrorist fairly easily )

They are highly trained and by far the minority of police.

Replace that with every single officer having a gun and them situation will change, probably not for the better.

[ArmyMedic2012]

creampuff said:

I don't see why police suddenly would get unapproachable if armed. I've asked coppers armed with machine guns for directions before; can't see the problem.

I agree with the above, i've stopped and spoken to the guys who guard Downing St on numerous occasions. Very friendly and ready with the banter, i even volunteered to show them how to use their weapons properly haha. Unless there is an incident in progress then the man (or woman) holding the weapon is simply a human being who would love the oppertunity to wile away afew minutes chatting. (Ex Infantry so i know what it's like to be stood around bored on guard with only a rifle for company).

[Devil2575]

caelite said:

As much as they are extremely illegal any reasonably intelligent criminal can aquire one.

So how come they feature in so few crimes then?

[Greendubber]

Devil2575 said:

So how come they feature in so few crimes then?

Cost and available ammo, you cant use stty home made rounds in a Mac-10.

[paintman]

Because its a bit harder to conceal an assault rifle than a handgun or sawn-off shotgun when en route to make a withdrawal at the bank or local corner shop. Less easy to smuggle in to the country in the first place.
Sawing off a rifle calibre assault rifle is likely to be problematic as they are usually gas operated so if you cut into the pipework they won't self reload.
And despite Labour's boasts the 1997 legislation did not 'remove all handguns from the streets of Britain'. TBH I don't think it made any difference whatsoever to the supply of illegal firearms.

Edited by paintman on Monday 23 November 12:31

[Devil2575]

paintman said:

...Less easy to smuggle in to the country in the first place.

Which was my point in the first place.

We're less likely to see a Paris style attack in the UK because such weapons are not so easy to get hold of.

[GC8]

Surprisingly, you can buy a fully automatic receiver for an AR15/M16 here, in the UK, quite legally and quite cheaply.

Its the only restricted part in America, but because it isn't a pressure bearing part it isn't restricted here. Add a barrel, bolt and trigger group (all you need to import - furniture freely available) and you're ready to rock'n'roll.

You can easily make a spray and pray type 9mm submachine gun in your shed too, if you follow the freely available plans - you can buy the book on Amazon! No rifling, but the cyclic rate will be mental anyway...

[Mill Wheel]

Devil2575 said:

Which was my point in the first place.

We're less likely to see a Paris style attack in the UK because such weapons are not so easy to get hold of.

You should not write off a Paris scale attack in the UK, simply because you don't know how many guns are in circulation.
To recreate a Paris style attack you only need half a dozen. There have been more than that seized in Cumbria since 2011, as well as an Uzi with silencer, a hand gun and two shotguns at Carlisle Railway station in 2012.
A number of weapons etc. are smuggled in by boats into small harbours between Liverpool and the Scottish Highlands, and 285 illegal guns were seized in Cumbria between 2011 and 2013 including 31 rifles.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-26...

[Bigends]

paintman said:

Because its a bit harder to conceal an assault rifle than a handgun or sawn-off shotgun when en route to make a withdrawal at the bank or local corner shop. Less easy to smuggle in to the country in the first place.
Sawing off a rifle calibre assault rifle is likely to be problematic as they are usually gas operated so if you cut into the pipework they won't self reload.
And despite Labour's boasts the 1997 legislation did not 'remove all handguns from the streets of Britain'. TBH I don't think it made any difference whatsoever to the supply of illegal firearms.

Edited by paintman on Monday 23 November 12:31

There arent that many in circulation though. A number of guns used in crime have to be shared between gangs, Concealed between jobs and returned after use. Surely this wouldnt be the case if there were plenty about? Lee Rigbys killers had a scabby old service revolver with a couple of rounds of ammo - that all they could muster. Uzis and the like have been seized but theyve generally not had the ammunition for them in any great quantity. We're fortunate in having a pretty effective intelligence system safeguarding us hence the recent high profile arms seizures - they werent found by accident.

[anonymous-user]

I'd agree with Bigends here.

GC8 said:

Disagree. The figures I saw (read quite a long time ago in a trusted source, suggested that the majority of armed applicants failed on the paper sort with the majority who passed this hurdle failing the psychological testing.

This suggested that the majority of police officers (who proposed themselves, of course) were not suitable for armed service.

It may well be the case, it'd need some more exploration and may need time to get a sufficient cycle through of people who pass all the initial tests as opposed to arming the existing officers.

[Greendubber]

I dont agree with him.

I've recovered some horrific stuff with plenty of ammo. Granted its your high level crims that have it but its out there in worrying numbers.

If they can get it your average IS terrorist will have it.

[Red Devil]

creampuff said:

It can go wrong, like when non-specialist armed NSW police shot Ron? Levied, mentally ill but no particular threat, on Bondi Beach.

Roni Levi - http://www.sl.nsw.gov.au/events/exhibitions/2010/o...
Weird that you should pick that particular example: he was French.

Back story - http://www.theage.com.au/news/in-depth/testing-tim...
Do stressed-out officers in the UK resort to such palliatives?

[creampuff]

^ My phone has an over-active auto correct, apologies for the misspelling of the name, I did actually type Levi.

The NSW police got a lot of criticism for that shooting. They were rightly criticised, IMO. So far as I'm aware a similar incident has not happened since.

Here is a link to the islamist who was shot by general duties police in Sydney (I mistakenly said earlier this was in Melbourne), after killing a civilian police employee:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-03/nsw-police-h...

[Bigends]

I remember this tragic incident from years back- the officer was an 'authorised shot' not fully trained - shot the boy in bed while he leaned on the bed to check under it shows you must have fully trained cops handling guns

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news...

Edited by Bigends on Monday 23 November 20:00

[Greendubber]

Bigends said:

I remember this tragic incident from years back- the officer was an 'authorised shot' not fully trained - shot the boy in bed while he leaned on the bed to check under it shows you must have fully trained cops handling guns

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news...

Edited by Bigends on Monday 23 November 20:00

Lots of officers I know are saying front line cops should all be armed. Things have changed a lot in 30 years but there are still officers that shouldnt be given a pen let alone a gun.

Lets not forget it was only a couple of months ago that the media were pissing themselves over an armed bobby buying a sandwich.

More specialist firearms officers on patrol 24/7 is whats needed, not a room full of guns and part timers booking them out.

[GC8]

Then every interaction changes and stops being about what it is currently about, an starts being about weapon retention... All policing will change, irreversibly.

[mph1977]

GC8 said:

Then every interaction changes and stops being about what it is currently about, an starts being about weapon retention... All policing will change, irreversibly.

which is what the US is currently facing nationwide, aside from the issues with a lack of cultural competence among majority white police officers policing majority black areas...

[focusxr5]

GC8 said:

Then every interaction changes and stops being about what it is currently about, an starts being about weapon retention... All policing will change, irreversibly.

Really?? I go out on patrol every day overtly armed with Taser on my chest and a Glock 17 strapped to my thigh as well as a small arsenal in the safe in the car. Hasn't changed my policing style in the slightest. I still interact with people in exactly the same way I did when I was an unarmed cop. The only difference comes when I'm dealing with armed criminality in which case I'm using trained tactics within a command structure to deal with the situation.I'm fully trained in weapon retention but I would say that I need to consider it maybe once in 100 interactions. Mrs Miggins out with her grandchildren asking me for the time, I'm hardly going to shield my weapon and shout 'GET BACK'.

Edited to correct autocorrect fails

Edited by focusxr5 on Tuesday 24th November 10:03

[Bigends]

focusxr5 said:

GC8 said:

Then every interaction changes and stops being about what it is currently about, an starts being about weapon retention... All policing will change, irreversibly.

Really?? I go out on patrol every day overtly armed with Taser on my chest and a Glock 17 strapped to my thigh as well as a small arsenal in the safe in the car. Hasn't changed my policing style in the slightest. I still interact with people in exactly the same way I did when I was an unarmed cop. The only difference comes when I'm dealing with armed criminality in which case I'm using trained tactics within a command structure to deal with the situation.I'm fully trained in weapon retention but I would say that I need to consider it maybe once in 100 interactions. Mrs Miggins out with her grandchildren asking me for the time, I'm hardly going to shield my weapon and shout 'GET BACK'.

Edited to correct autocorrect fails

Edited by focusxr5 on Tuesday 24th November 10:03

So youd be happy alone in the middle of a football crowd with that lot on or performing public order - actually getting involved and not stood on the sidelines. Its different whilst fireams carrying is a specialist duty and you can stay out of many hands on situations. I don't recall seeing firearms officers fighting and rolling round on the floor alone with drunks - theyd occasionally give us a hand once the yobs were back on their feet Could you afford to have people crowding round you - the yanks clearly don't allow it

Edited by Bigends on Tuesday 24th November 10:34

[Bigyoke]

Bigends said:

So youd be happy alone in the middle of a football crowd with that lot on or performing public order - actually getting involved and not stood on the sidelines. Its different whilst fireams carrying is a specialist duty and you can stay out of many hands on situations. I don't recall seeing firearms officers fighting and rolling round on the floor alone with drunks - theyd occasionally give us a hand once the yobs were back on their feet Could you afford to have people crowding round you - the yanks clearly don't allow it

Edited by Bigends on Tuesday 24th November 10:34

PSNI officers do all those things and more every single day. They aren't 'special' & it isn't 'different over there'', they perform exactly the same Policing functions as every other UK Police officer.