Reasonable force?

Author
Discussion

Elroy Blue

8,686 posts

191 months

Friday 20th November 2015
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This lot came into the UK recently

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/seven-court-a...

When you see what Derek Bird managed with a shotgun, you get a better understanding of Police Firearms capability. The week before Paris, Theresa May said she was looking at removing Firearms capability from many Police Forces. Having suffered a 25% budget cut, with at least another 25% forecast, it's looking very grim indeed.

Devil2575

13,400 posts

187 months

Friday 20th November 2015
quotequote all
Elroy Blue said:
This lot came into the UK recently

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/seven-court-a...

When you see what Derek Bird managed with a shotgun, you get a better understanding of Police Firearms capability.
Yes but it was siezed. When was the last time anyone in the UK was killed with a weapon like that?

I'm not saying that it isn't possible that London could suffer and attack like Paris, but i'd wager there is less chance.

Mill Wheel

Original Poster:

6,149 posts

195 months

Friday 20th November 2015
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eldar said:
When Derek Bird when on the rampage, the nearest armed police (except Sellafield CNC, who were locked in) were 30 and 35 miles away.
..and with topographical barriers leading to very poor road connections. The A595 in places is not much more than a country lane!

We recently had a seizure of a large amount of ammunition and weapons just a few miles from me, and the July 7th bombers trained in Cumbria! I wouldn't like to think the police were further hampered in providing an appropriate response by red tape regarding what weapons and ammunition they could deploy, after all the perpetrators have no such boundaries.


http://www.itv.com/news/border/2015-11-04/man-arre...

Derek Smith

45,512 posts

247 months

Friday 20th November 2015
quotequote all
Elroy Blue said:
The week before Paris, Theresa May said she was looking at removing Firearms capability from many Police Forces. Having suffered a 25% budget cut, with at least another 25% forecast, it's looking very grim indeed.
I think you will find that in a few days time, she didn't say that. It will suddenly become that what she meant was . . . well, whatever makes her look good.


Devil2575

13,400 posts

187 months

Friday 20th November 2015
quotequote all
Derek Smith said:
Elroy Blue said:
The week before Paris, Theresa May said she was looking at removing Firearms capability from many Police Forces. Having suffered a 25% budget cut, with at least another 25% forecast, it's looking very grim indeed.
I think you will find that in a few days time, she didn't say that. It will suddenly become that what she meant was . . . well, whatever makes her look good.
That's because security is expensive and a nuisance until they day you need it. People have no real idea of the threat until it manifests itself in an attack. Then they'll all want a lot more security.

Elroy Blue

8,686 posts

191 months

Friday 20th November 2015
quotequote all
Derek Smith said:
I think you will find that in a few days time, she didn't say that. It will suddenly become that what she meant was . . . well, whatever makes her look good.
Damien Green (Ex Tory Policing Minister) has repeated the '3800 extra neighbourhood Officers/500% increase' today. He then dismissed concerns as waffle. Even ACPO have come out of the woodwork and called him out on it. It's utter lies.

May will just continue the lies and stick her fingers in her ears. She even shouts down her own Tory MPs. I think her twin brother used to work in another country




h8tax

440 posts

142 months

Friday 20th November 2015
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Mill Wheel said:
eldar said:
When Derek Bird when on the rampage, the nearest armed police (except Sellafield CNC, who were locked in) were 30 and 35 miles away.
..and with topographical barriers leading to very poor road connections. The A595 in places is not much more than a country lane!

We recently had a seizure of a large amount of ammunition and weapons just a few miles from me, and the July 7th bombers trained in Cumbria! I wouldn't like to think the police were further hampered in providing an appropriate response by red tape regarding what weapons and ammunition they could deploy, after all the perpetrators have no such boundaries.


http://www.itv.com/news/border/2015-11-04/man-arre...
You really don't need to worry too much about that. What is pictured there is a coupe of thousand rounds of low calibre (.22) rifle ammo and maybe a bit of 9mm. The .22 is as much use as a chocolate teapot to a terrorist - I've seen grey squirrels run away after being shot with one.

However, the UK police firepower if up against Paris style attacks is laughable. The de-loaded rounds the police use are very weak in any case. They MIGHT be able to do a bit of containment until the bad boys from Hereford turn up, but that's about all. Whether you have 2 or 20 or even 200 firearms boys there is going to make very little difference on the day when it all goes pear shaped.

Any additional money is far better spent on beefing up special forces numbers in order to cut down their response time. "Ordinary" armed police are futile in the event of a large scale co-ordinated attack.

paintman

7,669 posts

189 months

Friday 20th November 2015
quotequote all
Where do you get this idea about 'deloaded rounds' from?
During my time in the job I spent the best part of 18 years as a firearms officer.
In training and qualification over that period I fired many thousands of rounds of fullbore pistol, shotgun and rifle ammunition in an assortment of calibers. All were standard factory manufactured ammunition (in the case of the 7.62 rifles in my early days it was military ball, but that later changed to jacketed soft points) and all were full power.
In my former force nothing has changed.

ETA. The photo appears to show on the right a quantity (a little over 1000 rounds)of .22 rimfire. On the left the low boxes appear to be fullbore pistol ammunition and the taller red boxes towards the back possibly fullbore rifle ammunition. The three canisters to the left appear to be smokeless powder for reloading centrefire ammunition and the red oval box amongst those appears to be the container for a set of reloading dies (unless I miss my guess by 'Lee Precision')for reloading centrefire cartridges.
.22 rimfire is entirely capable of killing providing the bullet hits something vital. No different to any other round.



Edited by paintman on Friday 20th November 14:38

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 20th November 2015
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Those who are suggesting that some of the 5000 rounds were wasted shots have perhaps been watching too many Hollywood movies. They may be the same people who sometimes ask why police didn't shoot a gun out of an armed criminal's hands. Amazing phacktoid: amazing precision shooting stuff that happens in action movies is, er, made up.

paintman

7,669 posts

189 months

Friday 20th November 2015
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^^^^^.
What BV said.

austinsmirk

5,597 posts

122 months

Friday 20th November 2015
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Its also good PR to remind such people who wish to harm others that they are likely to be brought to Allah and the promise of 40 virgins somewhat quicker, than be nicked in the leg with a bullet, make a recovery and spend the rest of their days in prison arguing they didn't mean to do it.

I hope it MAY make such a person think, "blimey, I don't fancy being turned into something with the density of a pair of net curtains".

Devil2575

13,400 posts

187 months

Friday 20th November 2015
quotequote all
Breadvan72 said:
Those who are suggesting that some of the 5000 rounds were wasted shots have perhaps been watching too many Hollywood movies. They may be the same people who sometimes ask why police didn't shoot a gun out of an armed criminal's hands. Amazing phacktoid: amazing precision shooting stuff that happens in action movies is, er, made up.
I read that is most situations you aim for the centre of mass i.e. the Torso, because it offers the biggest target.

eatcustard

1,003 posts

126 months

Friday 20th November 2015
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Devil2575 said:
I read that is most situations you aim for the centre of mass i.e. the Torso, because it offers the biggest target.
Not always, due to body armour, a head shot is preferred.

Burwood

18,709 posts

245 months

Friday 20th November 2015
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TwigtheWonderkid said:
Any amount of force in putting down these vermin is reasonable force. Like laying out excessive poison to deal with an infestation of rats. Just get the job done.
100% agree-anything less that calling in a Warthog gunship is reasonable

creampuff

6,511 posts

142 months

Friday 20th November 2015
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Mill Wheel said:
In view of the 5,000 rounds fired during the siege at St.Dennis in Paris, I wonder if there is any legislation or policy in force that pre-determines what is reasonable force here in the UK?
5,000 rounds suggests that suppressive fire was used. AFAIK the British police don't use suppressive fire. Or at least there has not yet been an incident in the UK where suppressive fire has been required. I read news reports saying that the army was used in Paris. The army use suppressive fire.

Your question is a bit of a misnomer, I don't think you are saying that this was not reasonable force, I think you are asking if 5,000 rounds was prudent in the prosecution, in this case, of reasonable lethal force.

creampuff

6,511 posts

142 months

Friday 20th November 2015
quotequote all
paintman said:
All were standard factory manufactured ammunition (in the case of the 7.62 rifles in my early days it was military ball, but that later changed to jacketed soft points) and all were full power.
In my former force nothing has changed.
I notice, wandering around airports or around London, that the police armed with carbines seem to have switched from guns firing (9mm I presume) pistol ammunition to guns firing (what looks like) .223/5.56 ammo. What do you do about over penetration and any members of the public who may be behind your target?

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 20th November 2015
quotequote all
Mill Wheel said:
In view of the 5,000 rounds fired during the siege at St.Dennis in Paris, I wonder if there is any legislation or policy in force that pre-determines what is reasonable force here in the UK?
Of course there is: http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/self_defence/

Elroy Blue said:
Having suffered a 25% budget cut, with at least another 25% forecast, it's looking very grim indeed.
Our centralised functions are being merged with neighbouring forces.

The ARV cover will be a lot thinner.

creampuff said:
I notice, wandering around airports or around London, that the police armed with carbines seem to have switched from guns firing (9mm I presume) pistol ammunition to guns firing (what looks like) .223/5.56 ammo. What do you do about over penetration and any members of the public who may be behind your target?
The rifles / carbines have moved away from 9mm for most armed officers I believe. The G36s are 5.56 IIRC.

I am not sure if the ammo is 'scored' to minimise it going through the target.

The real issue is with shots that miss the target, and whether they are 9mm or greater is going to be lethal.


creampuff

6,511 posts

142 months

Friday 20th November 2015
quotequote all
La Liga said:
The ARV cover will be a lot thinner.
I wonder if there is a middle ground between the current armed police and the idea that all police should be armed. Why not train and arm more beat/ordinary police than we have armed now, but not necessarily all police? When they go out for a drive in a panda car even on routine policing, give them a carbine/rifle to lock in the boot incase there is a "tricky situation" where a pistol isn't enough.

At least if there was a jihadi with an AK-47, having more armed police than we have now even one policeman with a carbine would slow them down while an ARV arrives.

XCP

16,875 posts

227 months

Friday 20th November 2015
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I don't think that is a very good idea.

FurryExocet

3,011 posts

180 months

Friday 20th November 2015
quotequote all
creampuff said:
I notice, wandering around airports or around London, that the police armed with carbines seem to have switched from guns firing (9mm I presume) pistol ammunition to guns firing (what looks like) .223/5.56 ammo. What do you do about over penetration and any members of the public who may be behind your target?
The 5.56 rounds are designed to go in and not come out, so if it hits the target, it shouldn't go through and hit anyone else.

The Surrey Police Crime commissioner made some good comments to the BBC today http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34881061
Weapons recently seized by the NCA