Reasonable force?
Discussion
FurryExocet said:
The 5.56 rounds are designed to go in and not come out, so if it hits the target, it shouldn't go through and hit anyone else.
The Surrey Police Crime commissioner made some good comments to the BBC today http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34881061
Weapons recently seized by the NCA
Do the police use frangible ammo? If they don't then it may over penetrate or it may not. About the BBC link: I'd be surprised if the police use "single shot" weapons anywhere. He is probably talking about police semi-automatic vs jihadi fully automatic. The Surrey Police Crime commissioner made some good comments to the BBC today http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34881061
Weapons recently seized by the NCA
In the North Hollywood shootout https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shoo...
once the under-armed LAPD visited the local gun store and got some semi-automatic rifles, they did manage against the crooks who had fully automatic weapons.
In general though, I don't think it would be a bad thing if more British police were armed and that the police who are armed with pistols also have rifles in their car.
Breadvan72 said:
The concept of reasonableness is not a difficult concept. You apply the concept with reference to the particular factual context in which it has to be applied. The concept is inherently flexible, and can't be strait jacketed by some strict guideline that applies to every conceivable situation.
In the Paris siege, the police and the terrorists were engaged in a stand up firefight. Each side fired lots of rounds in order to suppress the opposing side. Suppressing fire is intended to interfere with the enemy's ability to carry out its intentions, whilst facilitating your own side's ability to carry out its intentions. The side that wins the firefight gets to determine the outcome of the encounter. The police won the firefight. Their actions sound to me like they were proportionate and reasonable. The situation would have been different if they had been facing, for example, one person armed with a handgun instead of several people armed with automatic or semi automatic weapons and explosives.
This is possibly the most accurate thing written on PH about Le Plods actions in ParisIn the Paris siege, the police and the terrorists were engaged in a stand up firefight. Each side fired lots of rounds in order to suppress the opposing side. Suppressing fire is intended to interfere with the enemy's ability to carry out its intentions, whilst facilitating your own side's ability to carry out its intentions. The side that wins the firefight gets to determine the outcome of the encounter. The police won the firefight. Their actions sound to me like they were proportionate and reasonable. The situation would have been different if they had been facing, for example, one person armed with a handgun instead of several people armed with automatic or semi automatic weapons and explosives.
Edited by Breadvan72 on Friday 20th November 11:48
No one should be under any misapprehension that le plod intended for any one to walk away from that apartment along with around 5,000 round expended they also fired in 20+ 40mm grenades.
Due to the threat of self terminating terrorists who had already wounded 5 le flicks and killed the units K9 asset Monsieur cappo went for the kill or incapacitate option and from a range where further self detonating jihadists would not result in additional casualty's.
The game has changed and I believe our forces would if they felt it expedient do exactly the same witness what happened to jean charles de mendez
Mad Jock said:
There was a story around the time of the SAS shooting some IRA in Gibralter, when they shot them all at a petrol station. Intelligence from France and Spain suggested that they were an ASU, and had a car bomb, possibly remotely triggered. Shoot first, ask questions later, so the IRA bods went down in a hail of 9mm rounds.
At the inquest, it was revealed that one of the dead IRA had 13 bullet wounds, and an SAS trooper was asked why this was the case.
His answer?
"I ran out of bullets"..............
And to think there are still individuals living in the UK (although they probably identify themselves as another nationality) that would consider terrorist filth heroes and hold memorials every year to honour them.At the inquest, it was revealed that one of the dead IRA had 13 bullet wounds, and an SAS trooper was asked why this was the case.
His answer?
"I ran out of bullets"..............
amount of bullets they fired doesn't really come into the issue of reasonable force, deadly force is deadly force.
you only need 1 bullet per terrorist to make it count
When laying down that amount of fire though they do need to take public safety into account, using that amount of fire power in tin warehouse between a convent and a kitten factory which were not evacuated, would be incredibly reckless, but if they've gone door to door evacuating, and setup a half mile exclusion zone, so long as they're not going to hit each other, they can run up and down the halls shooting as much as they want
you only need 1 bullet per terrorist to make it count
When laying down that amount of fire though they do need to take public safety into account, using that amount of fire power in tin warehouse between a convent and a kitten factory which were not evacuated, would be incredibly reckless, but if they've gone door to door evacuating, and setup a half mile exclusion zone, so long as they're not going to hit each other, they can run up and down the halls shooting as much as they want
h8tax said:
However, the UK police firepower if up against Paris style attacks is laughable. The de-loaded rounds the police use are very weak in any case. They MIGHT be able to do a bit of containment until the bad boys from Hereford turn up, but that's about all. Whether you have 2 or 20 or even 200 firearms boys there is going to make very little difference on the day when it all goes pear shaped.
Any additional money is far better spent on beefing up special forces numbers in order to cut down their response time. "Ordinary" armed police are futile in the event of a large scale co-ordinated attack.
A very bold statement. What personal knowledge are you basing it on?Any additional money is far better spent on beefing up special forces numbers in order to cut down their response time. "Ordinary" armed police are futile in the event of a large scale co-ordinated attack.
focusxr5 said:
h8tax said:
However, the UK police firepower if up against Paris style attacks is laughable. The de-loaded rounds the police use are very weak in any case. They MIGHT be able to do a bit of containment until the bad boys from Hereford turn up, but that's about all. Whether you have 2 or 20 or even 200 firearms boys there is going to make very little difference on the day when it all goes pear shaped.
Any additional money is far better spent on beefing up special forces numbers in order to cut down their response time. "Ordinary" armed police are futile in the event of a large scale co-ordinated attack.
A very bold statement. What personal knowledge are you basing it on?Any additional money is far better spent on beefing up special forces numbers in order to cut down their response time. "Ordinary" armed police are futile in the event of a large scale co-ordinated attack.
ks statement creampuff said:
Do the police use frangible ammo? If they don't then it may over penetrate or it may not. About the BBC link: I'd be surprised if the police use "single shot" weapons anywhere. He is probably talking about police semi-automatic vs jihadi fully automatic.
Standard factory ammunition with expanding bullets. (Frangible bullets are generally intended for use in training to reduce damage to steel plates & ricochets/bounce backs as they are intended to break up on contact with a hard surface which may not be desirable in action) Semi-automatic pistols & carbines.
Note that to expand reliably a bullet needs to be travelling at sufficient velocity when it strikes the target & this is often a problem with pistol calibres.
In the case of the 9mm the same round - jacketed soft point - used in both pistol & carbine.
As I'm sure you are aware, the 9mm is the 9mm Parabellum round used extensively for many years in military pistols and sub machine guns. Its designer was Georg Luger & it entered military service in 1902 in the pistol that bears his name.
The .223 is the .223 Remington & is very similar to the military 5.56mm round but there are slight differences. (For those interested in ballistics the wiki entries for 9mmP & .223Rem/5.56mm are very good)
In .223 & 7.62 rifles again standard factory ammunition with jacketed soft points. No different to that used for stalking. Same in the .223 carbines. The 7.62 rifles I used & came across with other forces were mainly the Accuracy International or Remington PS bolt actions.
Some forces use the .243 Winchester round in bolt action rifles. (Note that the use of a manufacturer's name against a round generally indicates the particular round to differentiate it from other rounds of the same nominal calibre although Remington do also make guns such as the Remington PS. Confusing isn't it!)
The rifle calibres in carbines - esp .223 - allow for greater accuracy at distance, greater damage to the target and a higher likelihood of the bullet breaking up/expanding & remaining in the target due to the high velocity.
Impossible to guarantee that a bullet won't overpenetrate - or that there won't be misses. Or that a bullet that overpenetrates won't be deflected by whatever it hits inside the target & exits travelling in a completely random direction. All of which give the problem of innocent bystanders. This is ever going to be a problem for police & military. Not something that terrorists are in the least bit worried about.
I don't see an easy answer to that one - apart from not doing anything when terrorists strike.
Edited by paintman on Saturday 21st November 13:44
^
Thanks for reply. I assumed the reason for moving from pistol ammo to .223/5.56 was pistol ammunition lacks oomph. So the police use expanding ammunition in their carbines/rifles and not the FMJ .223 ammunition which you might buy at Walmart (if you live in the US that is
)?
Are police carbines limited to semi-automatic fire (as per the police and crime commissioner interview in the earlier bbc link)?
Thanks for reply. I assumed the reason for moving from pistol ammo to .223/5.56 was pistol ammunition lacks oomph. So the police use expanding ammunition in their carbines/rifles and not the FMJ .223 ammunition which you might buy at Walmart (if you live in the US that is
)?Are police carbines limited to semi-automatic fire (as per the police and crime commissioner interview in the earlier bbc link)?
creampuff said:
^
Thanks for reply. I assumed the reason for moving from pistol ammo to .223/5.56 was pistol ammunition lacks oomph. So the police use expanding ammunition in their carbines/rifles and not the FMJ .223 ammunition which you might buy at Walmart (if you live in the US that is )?
Are police carbines limited to semi-automatic fire (as per the police and crime commissioner interview in the earlier bbc link)?
Unless it's a proper machine gun or you are first into a room which needs clearing I don't know why you would use fully automatic.Thanks for reply. I assumed the reason for moving from pistol ammo to .223/5.56 was pistol ammunition lacks oomph. So the police use expanding ammunition in their carbines/rifles and not the FMJ .223 ammunition which you might buy at Walmart (if you live in the US that is
)?Are police carbines limited to semi-automatic fire (as per the police and crime commissioner interview in the earlier bbc link)?
.223Rem is available with many different bullet types, but all those I used & came across were JSP.
It's vital to train with the round you're going to use as that's the only way you can expect the same performance.
Full auto whilst being huge fun is not a realistic option for normal Police use. Too many bullets flying around which in the main for normal military use isn't an issue.
All those I used were semi-automatic & supplied by H&K in that format only. I am familiar with automatic weapons - SMG & MG - but not on-street police use.
Semi automatic is more precise & even for building entry & room clearance - esp if there are hostages present - a better option
It's vital to train with the round you're going to use as that's the only way you can expect the same performance.
Full auto whilst being huge fun is not a realistic option for normal Police use. Too many bullets flying around which in the main for normal military use isn't an issue.
All those I used were semi-automatic & supplied by H&K in that format only. I am familiar with automatic weapons - SMG & MG - but not on-street police use.
Semi automatic is more precise & even for building entry & room clearance - esp if there are hostages present - a better option
Edited by paintman on Saturday 21st November 12:48
If that had been the UK, the IPCC would be in a feeding frenzy. Five years later there would be demands for murfer trials because the terrorist guns were six feet away from the bodies. Eclassy and Rovingtroll would have 40 page thread , while Carniaman would be posting ten year old Daily Mail links about UFOs
^ In any recent case (e.g. the Khmer Rouge), the entire region or nation has been caught up in a murderous madness. That's not the case with ISIS - ISIS operatives really have to go out of their way to find trouble and unlike their 1970s Cambodian counterparts, they could leave ISIS and lead a peaceful life at any time. I have no sympathy for any ISIS operative whatsoever. They exercised free choice to get where they are.
Elroy Blue said:
If that had been the UK, the IPCC would be in a feeding frenzy. Five years later there would be demands for murfer trials because the terrorist guns were six feet away from the bodies. Eclassy and Rovingtroll would have 40 page thread , while Carniaman would be posting ten year old Daily Mail links about UFOs
Oh the irony is strong in this post, pick up your dummy and wash it off, you'll be fine....
paintman said:
.
In the case of the 9mm the same round - jacketed soft point - used in both pistol & carbine.
.
Very minor correction. The 9mm rounds used in pistol and carbine (although technically the MP5 isn't a carbine) is the Speer gold dot jacketed hollow point. The jacketed soft point the Police use are in .223 Calibre. In the case of the 9mm the same round - jacketed soft point - used in both pistol & carbine.
.
Edited by paintman on Saturday 21st November 13:44
Sorry to be a pedant.
jaf01uk said:
Oh the irony is strong in this post, pick up your dummy and wash it off, you'll be fine....
Perhaps you need to get a bit of a sense of humour. Regardless, the point of the post is correct. Any UK Officer in that situation would find themselves in an unenviable position. How many on here now screaming, "Arm the police, patrol the skies with helicpoter gunships, send in the SAS, nuke them all from orbit" were kicking off about then police shooting an unarmed man in the Jean Charles De Menezez incident, or potentially more appropriately those gangsters that triggered riots.
My view is that I don't want to see the police armed as a matter of course, I want to know that there is some armed response nearby (within 30 miles) and that the army if needed are there via helicopter, or other quick transport.
As for all the talk of being understaffed, I'm living in one of my rental homes currently and have (unfortunately) got two coppers for neighbours. She hasn't done a days work since I moved in 8 months ago, because she has a "hurty back". It doesn't stop her lugging stuff around the garden, drinking til 3am and dancing outside in the street. He seems to do the occasional day every now and then, but not much at all.
This doesn't seem to be an isolated example. There should be some tighter control of absence, as that would help to plug the gap.
My view is that I don't want to see the police armed as a matter of course, I want to know that there is some armed response nearby (within 30 miles) and that the army if needed are there via helicopter, or other quick transport.
As for all the talk of being understaffed, I'm living in one of my rental homes currently and have (unfortunately) got two coppers for neighbours. She hasn't done a days work since I moved in 8 months ago, because she has a "hurty back". It doesn't stop her lugging stuff around the garden, drinking til 3am and dancing outside in the street. He seems to do the occasional day every now and then, but not much at all.
This doesn't seem to be an isolated example. There should be some tighter control of absence, as that would help to plug the gap.
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