New cars, Winter tyres and Consumer Law !

[PorkInsider]

creampuff said:

Riley Blue said:

In 40 years of driving dozens and dozens of different cars I've never found summer tyres to be poor in cold weather. Why, because I drive to the conditions, just as I would if I had winter tyres fitted.

OP - on your new cars which didn't have summer tyres fitted, did you put some on?

Interesting POV. I've been unable to make it up about a 1 in 500 hill with summer tyres on and a road with snow and perhaps some ice. Are your summer tyres magic?

Sounds like they must be.

[TooMany2cvs]

LoonR1 said:

We don't have summer tyres in the UK, we have all year tyres.

The average "all year" tyre used in the UK is what everybody else - tyre manufacturers included - calls "summer tyres".

Winter tyres have a definite toehold in the market, as people realise how modern tyre compounds don't work well in cold weather.
All-seasons are on the way, but not really here yet.

[anonymous-user]

ash73 said:

O/T are we supposed to inform insurers about fitting winter wheels and tyres? Is it a modification?

there is a list someone posted before for i think 95% you don't have to inform them.

Forget all season tyres they should ban st tyres, that would solve a lot of problems. When i have driven in the winter people no carrying momentum then getting stuck behind others is the biggest problem. Maybe assertiveness training in poor condition as well.

Edited by The Spruce goose on Monday 23 November 01:08

[ging84]

The debate over winter tyres being better in the UK or not doesn't matter in the slightest
Just because winter tyres might be slightly better, or even significantly better, doesn't make ordinary tyres not fit for purpose
Perhaps while we are trying to get our free winter tyres included, we should also insist they include AWD and a heated windscreen at no extra cost

[LoonR1]

ash73 said:

O/T are we supposed to inform insurers about fitting winter wheels and tyres? Is it a modification?

There's a thread running on this already.

[longblackcoat]

havoc said:

ralphrj said:

drdel said:

In the UK the temperature is below 7 for about 40% of the time: say half of the year for the sake of argument.

I would be very surprised if that were true.

Precisely this.

Unless you live in Scotland, in which case you're on your own, let's make a few assumptions.

"Normal" driving is between the hours of 6am and 12am.
Typically in the UK, you don't see 7 Celsius or less in this period outside of late-Nov, Dec, Jan and Feb. So you're already restricting yourself to 3.5/12 months, = 29%.
Then consider that for maybe half of these days it'll never drop that low = 15% left.
Next, consider that even when it does, it won't always be that cold in the middle of the day (i.e. lunch/afternoon), so you can probably knock another 1/4 off = 12% left.

So, even by optimistics maths, it only drops below 7 Celsius for 12% of the time.

Finally, let's consider when winter tyres really show an improvement, i.e. on snow and ice. Which more than halves the above figure - both are rare things in the UK. So even being generous, we're at a figure where winter tyres are truly required for ~6% of the time. So let's use a window of 5-10%, to account for variations across the UK.

Does it really make sense then?!?

(BTW, I have winter tyres and I'm looking for a new set for the wife's car. But for many people they're not necessary, so I don't see we need to legislate for them, at least not in England...)

All of which is true. Different circumstances, however, give a different result.

I have to travel at 0500 every morning, and drive around 5 miles through winding exposed countryside with hills, in Hertfordshire. It's typically 2-3 C cooler than the surrounding area (cold is trapped in a hollow) and the roads are rarely gritted.

On my little stretch of road I've seen probably 15 cars crashed at the side of the road on the last three winters alone, and that's without thinking of the ones that simply couldn't make it and turned back, or the ones who were st-scared but made it through. Add to that the fact that I drive out to the Alps a lot (5 times a year, sometimes more) and for me, winter tyres make sense.

For my next-door neighbour, however, who only drives during the day, doesn't venture onto the back roads more than once in a blue moon, and doesn't go to the Alps, they'd be a total waste of time.

No need for legislation, just common sense.

[BertBert]

Where does all this 7 degrees hogwash come from? It is frequently quoted on here as some sort of magic dividing temperature. Anyone actually got any facts about it?

Also as Loon has pointed out, we don't have summer tyres other than very specialist ones in the UK. Pretty much every regular tyre you buy for your car is an all round tyre.

So why have winter tyres? It's not because of some super magical effect at 7 degrees. It's predominantly because they are far superior to regular tyres in the snow. Night and day. Perhaps there is some benefit in ice, but if you are on real frozen ice, unless you have studs, you are in deep st.

As for the original question, until (and that's never) winter tyres become law to fit in the winter, no the car manufacturers are not selling cars not fit for purpose.
Bert

[Vaud]

longblackcoat said:

No need for legislation, just common sense.

^^^ this. Though it is in short supply. Global shortage.

[JustinP1]

BertBert said:

Where does all this 7 degrees hogwash come from? It is frequently quoted on here as some sort of magic dividing temperature. Anyone actually got any facts about it?

...So why have winter tyres? It's not because of some super magical effect at 7 degrees. It's predominantly because they are far superior to regular tyres in the snow. Night and day.

Yes you are right, snow is night and day.

However, the compound of a winter tyre is softer and formulated to give better grip than a standard tyre at below 7ish degrees C. They also come with more than the standard 8mm of tread because they wear faster.

The advantage of a winter tyre in terms of grip increases the lower the temperature gets. However, it's slight, not large.

The trade-off is that if you are running a winter tyre at say 15 degrees outside temperature, you are getting much worse performance than a standard tyre in terms of stopping distance. Also they will wear very quickly at that temperature.

Hence, the reason why cars will never come with them as standard in this country, nor will it be a legal requirement.

I looked into it in depth last winter, being 5 miles from an A-road in any direction, and the wife doing morning school runs etc. However, the downsides (including cost) outweigh the benefits.

[plasticpig]

LoonR1 said:

No tyre is going to work on ice, unless it's studded and those tyres are illegal.

No they aren't. It's illegal to use a tyre which will damage the road surface. If there is enough ice on the roads for studded tyres not to damage the road surface then it's perfectly legal to use them.

[LoonR1]

plasticpig said:

LoonR1 said:

No tyre is going to work on ice, unless it's studded and those tyres are illegal.

No they aren't. It's illegal to use a tyre which will damage the road surface. If there is enough ice on the roads for studded tyres not to damage the road surface then it's perfectly legal to use them.

What a ridiculous comment.

[JumboBeef]

Every ambulance in Scotland (including rapid response cars) are all fitted all year round with winter tyres.

[FiF]

LoonR1 said:

plasticpig said:

LoonR1 said:

No tyre is going to work on ice, unless it's studded and those tyres are illegal.

No they aren't. It's illegal to use a tyre which will damage the road surface. If there is enough ice on the roads for studded tyres not to damage the road surface then it's perfectly legal to use them.

What a ridiculous comment.

No it's not ridiculous but for other reasons. Modern studded tyres are designed to be run on clear tarmac for up to 80% of their life, or thereabouts. They do wear the road surface more rapidly! , and you will see two shallow tracks in the road surface, but only after the passage of many hundreds of thousands of vehicles. They are not illegal to use in the UK, not advisable except under the most extreme of conditions, various reasons, noise, lower grip in traction, braking and cornering on dry and wet clear tarmac. In snow and ice conditions, mainly ice then the advantage is worthwhile their use. We generally don't get those conditions in UK, except perhaps in very isolated areas in the very north of Scotland during a bad winter, but they are NOT illegal in UK.

[FiF]

TooMany2cvs said:

If you buy a new car in a country which legally requires winter tyres, I wonder what it comes shod with, and whether there's a second set in the boot...?

It depends on the deal you strike with the supplying dealer.

Only one I ever bought new in Sweden, it was supplied in summer with a set of "free" steel rims in the boot. Bit like negotiating "free" car mats. The bare rims meant could go and buy the make of Tyres desired rather than just what the dealer fitted. I'm sure some people have the full deal, and others nothing, it's not exactly difficult to go to a tyre dealer and get hold of rims, steel or alloy.

A mate had a car with winters on the OEM rims, so he could then go and buy some stupidly large rims with rubber bands on for summer.

Pay your money, take your choice.

[Durzel]

Riley Blue said:

In 40 years of driving dozens and dozens of different cars I've never found summer tyres to be poor in cold weather. Why, because I drive to the conditions, just as I would if I had winter tyres fitted.

+1

I've had some performance cars, it's never been an issue. I'm not a driving God, I just moderate my driving based on the prevailing temperature & road conditions... simples!

[anonymous-user]

BertBert said:

Where does all this 7 degrees hogwash come from? It is frequently quoted on here as some sort of magic dividing temperature. Anyone actually got any facts about it?

Also as Loon has pointed out, we don't have summer tyres other than very specialist ones in the UK. Pretty much every regular tyre you buy for your car is an all round tyre.

So why have winter tyres? It's not because of some super magical effect at 7 degrees. It's predominantly because they are far superior to regular tyres in the snow. Night and day. Perhaps there is some benefit in ice, but if you are on real frozen ice, unless you have studs, you are in deep st.

As for the original question, until (and that's never) winter tyres become law to fit in the winter, no the car manufacturers are not selling cars not fit for purpose.
Bert

This is what Continental say, and most manufacturers have similar technical information on their sites:

"We strongly recommend using the appropriate tyre for each season. That means driving on summer tyres in the warmer time of the year and switching to winter tyres during the cold period. We believe all season tyres cannot provide adequate performance year-round in the UK.

Winter tyres are specifically designed to perform in all weather conditions when it is below 7oC, not just on snow. We recommend that you drive on summer tyres between March and October and winter tyres from October to March. "

They then go on to list the various performance comparisons of what they call summer and winter tyre's in cold conditions.

My experience over several years now is that winter tyre's are far better in cold condition, especially when it's wet and orders of magnitude better in the snow.

Those who say they 'drive accordingly' and use summer tyres all year round either live in cities all the time or are talking bks.

[HustleRussell]

REALIST123 said:

This is what Continental say, and most manufacturers have similar technical information on their sites:

"We strongly recommend using the appropriate tyre for each season. That means driving on summer tyres in the warmer time of the year and switching to winter tyres during the cold period. We believe all season tyres cannot provide adequate performance year-round in the UK.

Winter tyres are specifically designed to perform in all weather conditions when it is below 7oC, not just on snow. We recommend that you drive on summer tyres between March and October and winter tyres from October to March. "

They then go on to list the various performance comparisons of what they call summer and winter tyre's in cold conditions.

My experience over several years now is that winter tyre's are far better in cold condition, especially when it's wet and orders of magnitude better in the snow.

Those who say they 'drive accordingly' and use summer tyres all year round either live in cities all the time or are talking bks.

Tyre manufacturer who doesn't offer an all-season tyre in 'wouldn't recommend all season tyres' shocker.

P.S. Your final sentence comes across as pretty ignorant.

[longblackcoat]

Durzel said:

Riley Blue said:

In 40 years of driving dozens and dozens of different cars I've never found summer tyres to be poor in cold weather. Why, because I drive to the conditions, just as I would if I had winter tyres fitted.

+1

I've had some performance cars, it's never been an issue. I'm not a driving God, I just moderate my driving based on the prevailing temperature & road conditions... simples!

So long as you accept that on occasion (not that often in large parts of the UK, I grant you) that means you simply don't use the car, then that's a sensible attitude. I have an E39 530i that just stays on the driveway when the weather's terrible - winter tyres would make the usability far greater, but then I have two other cars thus equipped.

[anonymous-user]

I have bunged Michelin Cross-Climates on my E34 525i Waft-o-shed. These are supposedly all weather tyres, but I am yet to find out if they work on snow. I have a Series Landy, but that has Maxxis general purpose all terrain tyres - again, snow ability unknown.

[johnwilliams77]

Breadvan72 said:

I have bunged Michelin Cross-Climates on my E34 525i Waft-o-shed. These are supposedly all weather tyres, but I am yet to find out if they work on snow. I have a Series Landy, but that has Maxxis general purpose all terrain tyres - again, snow ability unknown.

I am also considering putting them on an E39 waft-o-shed (automatic), hopefully you get some snow and can let me know how it goes...(I don't need to use the car day to day fortunately).