Another boundary dispute
Discussion
Hi All
My father owns a commercial property which he has rented out to the same tenants for a long time, and they're very good tenants all fine there. So he hasn't visited the property too much in the last few years. He has recently been made aware that around 5 years ago the owner of an adjacent property has rebuilt the boundary fence to encroach upon his land, and has built a lean-to shed on the same.
My father has engaged a boundary surveyor who has established that the boundary should absolutely be a straight line but now has an obvious kink. My father has tried to engage with the neighbour, who seems to accept what he has done but he is muttering things to the effect that there are septic tanks, drains etc which would all be affected by any attempt to reinstate the boundary to its correct location. All recent attempts to communicate with the neighbour seem to be rebuffed.
My father has been advised that it will cost around £20,000 to bring an action against the neighbour. Of course his chances of recovering all his costs is pretty low even if he wins his action, especially if the neighbour approaches his debts the same way he does his land rights. My view is that my father now has a recorded boundary dispute with the neighbour and this will directly affect the value of his property, so he needs to take action. However, I would like to help him get the desired outcome (dismantling of the lean-to and reinstatement of the boundary) at minimum cost.
Can anyone let me know what specific areas of law are involved here? I'd like to get myself appraised of the landscape before we start racking up costs. Also, I'm assuming it would be inadvisable to remove the neighbours stuff from my father's property? At what point (if ever) would we be entitled to do so?
Land Registry document (my father's property outlined, neighbour's property above it - this document predates the development of the neighbour's land into a couple of new homes around 2008).
Picture during original development in 2008 - the boundary runs through the furthest telegraph pole, basically in line with the paving slabs next to the house:
As it looked shortly after development around mid 2011:
Another view as it is today, showing the obvious kink where he has infringed (the boundary should continue in a straight line from the rear fences, through the telegraph pole):
Finally a view front on; where the original brick wall at the front finishes is pretty much where the boundary should be; that's where the house developer placed it. You can see how much he has stolen at the front:
Sensible advice on next steps and actual points of law welcomed. Sausages have already been hammered and cans of Red Bull thrown.
My father owns a commercial property which he has rented out to the same tenants for a long time, and they're very good tenants all fine there. So he hasn't visited the property too much in the last few years. He has recently been made aware that around 5 years ago the owner of an adjacent property has rebuilt the boundary fence to encroach upon his land, and has built a lean-to shed on the same.
My father has engaged a boundary surveyor who has established that the boundary should absolutely be a straight line but now has an obvious kink. My father has tried to engage with the neighbour, who seems to accept what he has done but he is muttering things to the effect that there are septic tanks, drains etc which would all be affected by any attempt to reinstate the boundary to its correct location. All recent attempts to communicate with the neighbour seem to be rebuffed.
My father has been advised that it will cost around £20,000 to bring an action against the neighbour. Of course his chances of recovering all his costs is pretty low even if he wins his action, especially if the neighbour approaches his debts the same way he does his land rights. My view is that my father now has a recorded boundary dispute with the neighbour and this will directly affect the value of his property, so he needs to take action. However, I would like to help him get the desired outcome (dismantling of the lean-to and reinstatement of the boundary) at minimum cost.
Can anyone let me know what specific areas of law are involved here? I'd like to get myself appraised of the landscape before we start racking up costs. Also, I'm assuming it would be inadvisable to remove the neighbours stuff from my father's property? At what point (if ever) would we be entitled to do so?
Land Registry document (my father's property outlined, neighbour's property above it - this document predates the development of the neighbour's land into a couple of new homes around 2008).
Picture during original development in 2008 - the boundary runs through the furthest telegraph pole, basically in line with the paving slabs next to the house:
As it looked shortly after development around mid 2011:
Another view as it is today, showing the obvious kink where he has infringed (the boundary should continue in a straight line from the rear fences, through the telegraph pole):
Finally a view front on; where the original brick wall at the front finishes is pretty much where the boundary should be; that's where the house developer placed it. You can see how much he has stolen at the front:
Sensible advice on next steps and actual points of law welcomed. Sausages have already been hammered and cans of Red Bull thrown.
If it's not affecting your Dad's tenants, I'd offer to sell them the land at a price that your Dad is happy with. If they refuse, let them know you will remove their building and reinstate the boundary fence if they don't.
If it's your Dad's land, I can't see any reason why he can't remove anything that is built on it.
If it's your Dad's land, I can't see any reason why he can't remove anything that is built on it.
Piss being taken (I think he has used the old fence panels for the 'door' of the bloody shed by the look of it as well!)
Now is the time to consider that real implications of the neighbours actions and the commercial value of any way ahead chosen.
5 years, no complaints from dad's Tenants, I am thinking (on the basis of the very scant information here) that the best way forward is come to an agreement with the neighbour that involves them paying a nominal sum for the land and all the fees for sorting the transfer to them.
Cost far less than £20k and everyone should be content at the end of it. Not the most 'pleasing' of solutions but dodges the dispute (resolved) and ensures that the documents marry with the land in occupation.
Of course if dad's tenants are getting uppity about it or there are other issues a different approach might be needed but i would look at this with commercial eyes first and bother about my sensibilities.
Moral of the story? Walk your boundaries at least once a year every year of any property you own that you don't see all the time. If the answer is that you have too much property and too little time to do this then get a trusted lackey who knows the correct boundaries to do it for you. Whilst 5 years is no where near enough for the neighbour to start claiming any sort of ownership these things are best knocked on the head day one rather than day 1,825...
Now is the time to consider that real implications of the neighbours actions and the commercial value of any way ahead chosen.
5 years, no complaints from dad's Tenants, I am thinking (on the basis of the very scant information here) that the best way forward is come to an agreement with the neighbour that involves them paying a nominal sum for the land and all the fees for sorting the transfer to them.
Cost far less than £20k and everyone should be content at the end of it. Not the most 'pleasing' of solutions but dodges the dispute (resolved) and ensures that the documents marry with the land in occupation.
Of course if dad's tenants are getting uppity about it or there are other issues a different approach might be needed but i would look at this with commercial eyes first and bother about my sensibilities.
Moral of the story? Walk your boundaries at least once a year every year of any property you own that you don't see all the time. If the answer is that you have too much property and too little time to do this then get a trusted lackey who knows the correct boundaries to do it for you. Whilst 5 years is no where near enough for the neighbour to start claiming any sort of ownership these things are best knocked on the head day one rather than day 1,825...
Rude-boy said:
RE poles - very naughty but don't let others issues become yours. I would be holding fire on the call to BT until I had worked out where things stood on getting everything sorted. No point in coming to a reasonable agreement and then scuttling it by an early call to BT...
It's hard to be sure from the photo but that utility pole does not appear to be providing a service to the developed property. In which case a wayleave is required. That ramshackle lean-to is obstructing access for maintenance/repair and the utility company may have something to say about it. Whether they can force its removal I don't know.It would be a delicious irony if the encroached on parcel of land were to be sold at a negotiated price and the neighbour then finds that he still has to keep the access route clear by dismantling the shed.
Rude-boy said:
5 years, no complaints from dad's Tenants, I am thinking (on the basis of the very scant information here) that the best way forward is come to an agreement with the neighbour that involves them paying a nominal sum for the land and all the fees for sorting the transfer to them.
It's not up to his dad's tenants to complain, they have no idea where the boundary is and no idea whose land is whose.Agree that the best way forward is probably to get the bloke to pay for the land unless your dad desperately wants it back. I suspect you'll need to go legal before he entertains paying anything though unfortunately.
Cheers all. The telegraph pole is something I cottoned on to straight away (my dad only just made me aware of all this) so he's off looking into the wayleaves now. If they're both on his land then it supports the boundary position argument but doesn't resolve the issue of itself. Of course this piece of land is not worth £20,000 but with a boundary dispute with the neighbour now needing to be declared the value of the commercial property might be reduced by this amount or more. The current tenants (of the commercial property) have been pretty OK about it, but they've had to take some measures against excess rainwater pooling on the commercial property as the guttering from the lean-to drains simply drains directly onto the areas where the cars are parked. I'd imagine that they would prefer the thing to go.
Friend of mine has the absolute most cut and dried boundary dispute ever and is getting nowhere fast.
In a nutshell her neighbour cut down a fence and relocated it 1m inside her side of the boundary "because he felt like it"
They have paid ££££ to lawyers and the attitude of the robbing b
d suggests that when it reaches court - 2y and counting from initial solicitors papers ignoring all attempts at arbitration - it will easily go her way but she will have another world of pain getting him to do what the court tells him toSo in light of this try and settle out of the judicial system - but I do like the telegraph pole/ utility company approach
Best of luck
Rude-Boy has it.
I expect best solution would be to sell whatever land the bloke has encroached on. Then all the problems become his when BT come knocking re: the pole.
You may have some decent leverage too if the 'normal' outcome would be rectification by demolition of the lean to and re-instatement of the boundary - neighbour won't want to do that.
I expect best solution would be to sell whatever land the bloke has encroached on. Then all the problems become his when BT come knocking re: the pole.
You may have some decent leverage too if the 'normal' outcome would be rectification by demolition of the lean to and re-instatement of the boundary - neighbour won't want to do that.
AyBee said:
Agree that the best way forward is probably to get the bloke to pay for the land unless your dad desperately wants it back. I suspect you'll need to go legal before he entertains paying anything though unfortunately.
Apparently when my dad first raised it with the neighbour, he fessed up and asked my dad what he wanted to "compensate". My dad said he'd have a think and get back to him - since then all attempts to communicate have been stonewalled. Unfortunately "going legal" does usually involve both sides incurring significant costs; there's some good advice on http://www.boundary-problems.co.uk/boundary-proble...:"In the stereotypical boundary dispute between residential properties both parties stand on their principles, engage solicitors, obtain surveyors' reports, instruct barristers and go to court. The process can take three of four agonising years in which the anxiety may well make at least one of the protagonists very ill. The whole process will cost as much as the protagonists feel compelled to spend, typically between £25,000 and £50,000 each side. At the end of the day, one of the parties is going to lose the case and is likely to be ordered to pay a substantial proportion of the other party's costs. And all for a narrow strip of land to which a chartered valuation surveyor would ascribe no marketable value."
Without just giving in and letting this chancer win the day, and conscious of not getting involved in a financially futile legal exercise, are there any alternatives?
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