Assisted suicide..

[julianc]

Sound like a health LPA is what's required to protect your mum's interests in the event she becomes incapable of making reasonable decisions. That way you'll be able to manage the process of implementing your mum's wishes, the latter being the paramount issue. I've also heard of a 'living will', but I'm no expert.

Difficult decisions ahead, but it's possible to plan ahead to steer things in the direction your mum wants.

Good luck.

[ModernAndy]

amusingduck said:

Who decides whether the reasons are compelling or not?

If I would rather take a trip to dignitas to avoid spending the rest of my life dribbling in a godforsaken care home, and pissing my life savings up the wall in the process, who are you (or anyone else for that matter) to decide that my reasons aren't compelling enough?

that's a good question but it does lead down the road to preventing anybody challenging anybody's wishes. Why isn't it compelling if a 15 year old wants to commit suicide for reasons outside a debilitating illness and it's a choice they've made on their own?

I am a supporter of the right to die but I will always balance that with reasoning on a case by case basis that errs against assisted suicide much like a court must err on the side of innocent till proven guilty.

[ModernAndy]

Devil2575 said:

Is wealth the primary driver here? I think people are getting hung up on the idea of the inheritance but I suspect that isn't what is at the forefront of the OP's mothers mind.

I think it entirely reasonable that if I wish to go into a care home that my house be sold to fund it. The issue is that I would like to end my life with a little bit more dignity than the current law allows.

It obviously won't be in the OP's mother's mind and quite a few of us are taking the piss just on the basis of the grammar of the initial post and I hope the OP isn't taking too much offence. I think it's reasonable too and as I've said above, I'm not a staunch supporter of the unwilling continuation of life against a person's wishes. It's just a very difficult matter to legislate for (among other things).

[amusingduck]

ModernAndy said:

that's a good question but it does lead down the road to preventing anybody challenging anybody's wishes. Why isn't it compelling if a 15 year old wants to commit suicide for reasons outside a debilitating illness and it's a choice they've made on their own?

I am a supporter of the right to die but I will always balance that with reasoning on a case by case basis that errs against assisted suicide much like a court must err on the side of innocent till proven guilty.

I would say it is not compelling because a 15 year old is not an adult. Once a persons brain has fully matured, and they are not suffering any mental health issues, they are free to die whenever they please IMO.

[ModernAndy]

amusingduck said:

ModernAndy said:

that's a good question but it does lead down the road to preventing anybody challenging anybody's wishes. Why isn't it compelling if a 15 year old wants to commit suicide for reasons outside a debilitating illness and it's a choice they've made on their own?

I am a supporter of the right to die but I will always balance that with reasoning on a case by case basis that errs against assisted suicide much like a court must err on the side of innocent till proven guilty.

I would say it is not compelling because a 15 year old is not an adult. Once a persons brain has fully matured, and they are not suffering any mental health issues, they are free to die whenever they please IMO.

so we can add consent to the list of compelling reasons. What if they're 22, a father to 3 children and want to die because their wife has left them (and made it clear she won't look after the kids in any circumstances) after he has been caught cheating with another woman?

[Devil2575]

ModernAndy said:

so we can add consent to the list of compelling reasons. What if they're 22, a father to 3 children and want to die because their wife has left them (and made it clear she won't look after the kids in any circumstances) after he has been caught cheating with another woman?

I wonder how many wives abandon their children in such a way and would refuse to care for them even in the event of the ex husbands death?

While extreme situations undoubtably come up from time to time they should not be used as the basis for designing legislation.

[ModernAndy]

Devil2575 said:

I wonder how many wives abandon their children in such a way and would refuse to care for them even in the event of the ex husbands death?

While extreme situations undoubtably come up from time to time they should not be used as the basis for designing legislation.

I'm not trying to make the extreme case, the point I was replying to was "Who decides whether the reasons are compelling or not?" and I'm trying to say that the issue goes well beyond the basics of personal choice. I was hoping to tease out a few points that highlight the fact that there is an imperative to prevent suicide where we can.

[WinstonWolf]

Tallboy said:

WinstonWolf said:

Not everyone needs extended care at the end of life, that's how the system is sold. You all pay in and care is available to those that need it.

Agreed not everyone will, although the number that will is growing but the system has never been sold that way. Neither the 1911 or 46 NI acts provided for long term care nor did the NHS act. Beveridge was quite clear that it was to be for the prevention and cure of disease not extended periods of care.

And the reasons for this are quite clear. Neither Beveridge or Bevan could foresee the advances in medicine, the increase in longevity and social/family changes which have led to individuals being unwilling or unable to look after 'their own'.

And we're back to politics, no politician wants to tell people what they won't be getting for their tax money. No politician has said that you'll always be taken care of no matter what for free, for ever but they haven't said you won't either. So go back to the maths.

I'm more interested in the issue of assisted suicide than maths. My father is well overdue a trip to meet his maker, unfortunately attitudes such as the OP make it impossible for genuine cases of assisted suicide to happen.

If money is a deciding factor in assisting someone to commit suicide you're not qualified to make the decision IMO. It should only ever boil down to the question does the person have any quality of life.

[amusingduck]

ModernAndy said:

amusingduck said:

ModernAndy said:

that's a good question but it does lead down the road to preventing anybody challenging anybody's wishes. Why isn't it compelling if a 15 year old wants to commit suicide for reasons outside a debilitating illness and it's a choice they've made on their own?

I am a supporter of the right to die but I will always balance that with reasoning on a case by case basis that errs against assisted suicide much like a court must err on the side of innocent till proven guilty.

I would say it is not compelling because a 15 year old is not an adult. Once a persons brain has fully matured, and they are not suffering any mental health issues, they are free to die whenever they please IMO.

so we can add consent to the list of compelling reasons. What if they're 22, a father to 3 children and want to die because their wife has left them (and made it clear she won't look after the kids in any circumstances) after he has been caught cheating with another woman?

Yes, I see the point you are making. Obviously short term anguish is not a compelling reason. If he still felt the same 3 years down the line, and was of sound mind and judgement, is it still right to stop him? Don't get me wrong, somebody committing suicide in those particular circumstances is reprehensible, but should it be illegal? Theres nothing to stop him commiting suicide the old fashioned way, after all.

[amusingduck]

WinstonWolf said:

I'm more interested in the issue of assisted suicide than maths. My father is well overdue a trip to meet his maker, unfortunately attitudes such as the OP make it impossible for genuine cases of assisted suicide to happen.

If money is a deciding factor in assisting someone to commit suicide you're not qualified to make the decision IMO. It should only ever boil down to the question does the person have any quality of life.

I don't think family should be involved with the decision making process one bit, regardless of whether they are for or against that person choosing to die.

But I disagree that an arbitrary "quality of life" assessment is necessary for somebody to be able to choose when their life ends.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

WinstonWolf said:

It should only ever boil down to the question does the person have any quality of life.

In whose opinion? One person may want to die having lost the use of one arm, whist someone else can be completely paralysed and still enjoy their life.

Also, it's very easy to be in reasonable health and say "if I ever get like this or that, I'll want to die", and an entirely different thing to actually get to that position and hold the same view.

My gran was a prime example. Always said she didn't want to be a burden, but when she got to that stage, was a huge burden and didn't care, just wanted to live forever.

[ModernAndy]

amusingduck said:

ModernAndy said:

amusingduck said:

ModernAndy said:

that's a good question but it does lead down the road to preventing anybody challenging anybody's wishes. Why isn't it compelling if a 15 year old wants to commit suicide for reasons outside a debilitating illness and it's a choice they've made on their own?

I am a supporter of the right to die but I will always balance that with reasoning on a case by case basis that errs against assisted suicide much like a court must err on the side of innocent till proven guilty.

I would say it is not compelling because a 15 year old is not an adult. Once a persons brain has fully matured, and they are not suffering any mental health issues, they are free to die whenever they please IMO.

so we can add consent to the list of compelling reasons. What if they're 22, a father to 3 children and want to die because their wife has left them (and made it clear she won't look after the kids in any circumstances) after he has been caught cheating with another woman?

Yes, I see the point you are making. Obviously short term anguish is not a compelling reason. If he still felt the same 3 years down the line, and was of sound mind and judgement, is it still right to stop him? Don't get me wrong, somebody committing suicide in those particular circumstances is reprehensible, but should it be illegal? Theres nothing to stop him commiting suicide the old fashioned way, after all.

I believe assisting somebody in a similar set of circumstances should be prevented but that is just my point of view and it's open to challenge. It is an extreme example simply for the fact that the person is unlikely to ask for help in doing it anyway but I did want to put the point across that a barrier to stopping people doing it when the circumstances aren't compelling seems like a necessary instrument of the law to me.

Both myself and my OH have grandparents with dementia in homes and personally I would like to take my first and last dose of heroin before I ended up in that situation so I'm not anti assisted dying but I'm obviously not the polar opposite either.

[WinstonWolf]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

WinstonWolf said:

It should only ever boil down to the question does the person have any quality of life.

In whose opinion? One person may want to die having lost the use of one arm, whist someone else can be completely paralysed and still enjoy their life.

Also, it's very easy to be in reasonable health and say "if I ever get like this or that, I'll want to die", and an entirely different thing to actually get to that position and hold the same view.

My gran was a prime example. Always said she didn't want to be a burden, but when she got to that stage, was a huge burden and didn't care, just wanted to live forever.

A panel consisting of medical and legal professionals. There are cases where ending a life is the right thing to do, but is should never come down to a question of money.

Unfortunately when the time comes the person isn't usually sufficiently compos mentis to make the call.

[superlightr]

Devil2575 said:

This.

My grandfather went through a protracted and slow decline over about 5 years till eventually he just stopped eating and went down hill rapidly after that. In the end he had no idea if he was surrounded by people who loved him or not as he didn't actually know anyone anymore. He went from a proud man who felt like the head of the family to a confused person with no memory and no ability to do anything for himself. I'm am quite sure that had he been given a choice he would not have chosen to go that way. My father isn't afraid of dying but he is afraid of going through the same thing. It's perfectly reasonable to want to address this issue. Sadly those in power have not had the nerve to change the law yet but it is only a matter of time.

Agree with Devil12575 its a awful thing to see and to fear. I too wish the govt would grow some balls and allow dignity in dying in the UK. My father died horribly, slowly and painfully almost to the very end. Our dog died at the same time but quickly, painlessly, not drawn out over a year and as carefully as we and the vet could help him.

OP I do understand where you are coming from. Sounds like you have a great mum who is realistic and sensible on planning ahead. Enjoy your time with her.

[XCP]

I can never understand why we treat our pets better than our fellow human beings.

[Devil2575]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

WinstonWolf said:

It should only ever boil down to the question does the person have any quality of life.

In whose opinion? One person may want to die having lost the use of one arm, whist someone else can be completely paralysed and still enjoy their life.

Also, it's very easy to be in reasonable health and say "if I ever get like this or that, I'll want to die", and an entirely different thing to actually get to that position and hold the same view.

My gran was a prime example. Always said she didn't want to be a burden, but when she got to that stage, was a huge burden and didn't care, just wanted to live forever.

Which is fine. If she wanted to live then good for her. The issue is if she didn't want to live should she have been allowed to get assistance to end it.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

Devil2575 said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

WinstonWolf said:

It should only ever boil down to the question does the person have any quality of life.

In whose opinion? One person may want to die having lost the use of one arm, whist someone else can be completely paralysed and still enjoy their life.

Also, it's very easy to be in reasonable health and say "if I ever get like this or that, I'll want to die", and an entirely different thing to actually get to that position and hold the same view.

My gran was a prime example. Always said she didn't want to be a burden, but when she got to that stage, was a huge burden and didn't care, just wanted to live forever.

Which is fine. If she wanted to live then good for her. The issue is if she didn't want to live should she have been allowed to get assistance to end it.

I don't disagree. The problem is, when someone says they want to die, do they really want to die, or are they just reluctant to be a burden or anxious to make sure wee Hamish McSporran gets the hoose and it's not eaten up in care fees.

[Monkeylegend]

On to more important issues, OP promised pictures of his Mum, him and the house. Hope it wasn't the drink talking

[Durzel]

superlightr said:

Devil2575 said:

This.

My grandfather went through a protracted and slow decline over about 5 years till eventually he just stopped eating and went down hill rapidly after that. In the end he had no idea if he was surrounded by people who loved him or not as he didn't actually know anyone anymore. He went from a proud man who felt like the head of the family to a confused person with no memory and no ability to do anything for himself. I'm am quite sure that had he been given a choice he would not have chosen to go that way. My father isn't afraid of dying but he is afraid of going through the same thing. It's perfectly reasonable to want to address this issue. Sadly those in power have not had the nerve to change the law yet but it is only a matter of time.

Agree with Devil12575 its a awful thing to see and to fear. I too wish the govt would grow some balls and allow dignity in dying in the UK. My father died horribly, slowly and painfully almost to the very end. Our dog died at the same time but quickly, painlessly, not drawn out over a year and as carefully as we and the vet could help him.

OP I do understand where you are coming from. Sounds like you have a great mum who is realistic and sensible on planning ahead. Enjoy your time with her.

To be fair to the government (never thought I'd say that) but apocryphal stories of admittedly tragic cases that appear on the surface to be cut and dried are hardly a foundation for legislation that seeks to enable assisted suicide.

It is clearly a massive minefield, and I don't believe it is as black and white as apocryphal cases would lead one to believe. What if a family member objected? What if the subject was or had been coerced into a decision? What if the subject has a sudden change of heart during the procedure? What if, as suggested above, it's a decision borne out of a perception of not wanting to be a burden, etc.

Quality of life is also subjective as said above, and I also don't think it's a simple as saying "X wouldn't have wanted to live like this", when X is no longer capable - mentally or physically - to understand the decision they are making anymore.

My Nan passed away recently after a protracted period of being bed ridden and it was particularly laboured towards the end, and she had expressed thoughts that she didn't want to end up dependant on carers, etc. Every member of the present family were in agreement that she shouldn't have to suffer. But, even knowing all this, I think it is not clear cut that any one of us should have been able to decide the point at which she was essentially killed (as she would've lived beyond that point, possibly even had moments of lucidity, etc).

Right now it would seem, though difficult to confirm, that doctors already give "more morphine for the pain" during palliative care, but they too are caught between a rock and a hard place. It obviously doesn't happen in all cases, as it didn't with my Nan, mainly because she didn't appear to be in pain.

So yeah - it's a horrible thing to try and legislate for in a way that has no potential for abuse. Right now, as harrowing as it can be for the people left behind, at least there's no legal ambiguity.

[Shuvi McTupya]

Monkeylegend said:

On to more important issues, OP promised pictures of his Mum, him and the house. Hope it wasn't the drink talking

Yeah, I decided that ain't happening