Served notice; tenants refusing to move - HELP.

[Joe5y]

Hi all,

In need of some advice.

Having rented my house out for the past 6 years I have now decided to move back into this, my first house. My circumstances have changed but the biggest sway for making this decision is that the current tenants (of 4 years) have seriously damaged the property resulting it being un-rentable to others and isn't in a state to sell; if I had wanted to. Rather besides the point anyhow as put simply I want to move back into my house. As of today I moved out my 2nd house to make way for other tenants and am staying at a friends until I move back into my first house.

I served notice as per the tenancy agreement (and law) 2 months ago. Today however I got the following email forwarded from the letting agency that it is full managed by;

"Hi *****
We still have not managed to secure alternative accommodation. We have some viewings today but it's fine line to meet the deadline considering references will need to be done and we do not get paint until after the 24th deadline.
The landlord will have to be flexible. We have been good tenants and never missed paying rent for the whole period we have been here

Regards

• *** ******"

I assume he meant 'paid', not "paint". Also, thank you for paying the rent, he seems to think that this is a favour?!!

The agency have advised me that they are not willing to enter into a "part-time" contract or short extension owing the the implications of eviction without a correct tenancy agreement. As it stands I have workman arriving next Monday with 8+ contractors / tradesman booked to replace ceilings, carpets, kitchen, bathrooms and boiler etc. With the agency only sending my comments on what I need is a better idea as to what my options are?

My understanding is, Monday they're supposed to be gone; they won't be. I can't just walk in even though I have keys. They could, as I understand, stay as long as they want until I fart about with courts and get an eviction notice > 6months!

HELP!

[Red Devil]

OP, you need to read up on Section 8 and Section 21 notices. Which one was used? There are crucial differences.
In the meantime you must put your contractors on hold until you are certain that the tenants have vacated.

[PHCorvette]

Sorry that is just some guidance, there is a change to the S21 requirements if the AST started after Oct 1st 2015 or the fixed portion of the AST expired after the 1st Oct 2015.

Here is Section 21 of the HA http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/50/sectio...

and here is section 37 of the Deregulations Act 2015 which amends Section 21 of the HA http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/20/sectio...

Here is some guidance on how to rent for tenants and landlords: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/how-to-...

good luck, the powers are now swift and effective if the notice was correctly served. In the past I had the local authority inform some tenants, in bloody writing, that as they had kids they may as well sit where they are as there is fk all chance of them being evicted any time soon. took 8 months to get rid but thankfully they at least paid their rent.

Some other guidance on serving notice https://www.gov.uk/guidance/gaining-possession-of-...

Edited by PHCorvette on Tuesday 19th January 02:00

[TooMany2cvs]

Joe5y said:

My understanding is, Monday they're supposed to be gone; they won't be. I can't just walk in even though I have keys. They could, as I understand, stay as long as they want until I fart about with courts and get an eviction notice > 6months!

Yep. That's exactly the way it works. Until they move out, it remains their home, with all the legal protection - including the right to quiet enjoyment. And, of course, the responsibility to pay rent.

Serving notice doesn't mean they WILL be gone on that date. It means that's the first date that you can start to go through the steps and get a court to order their eviction.

Better stand the workmen down - you were a bit premature in booking a definite date for them.

[Rangeroverover]

In the past I have resorted to paying the deposit and first months rent for tenants who don't want to move out.This is offered to them on the basis they have 7 days to vacate or all bets are off.

It sticks in my throat but is a better option than spending on lawyers and losing rent for an even longer period...you still have their deposit so you are really only losing one months rent

[the_lone_wolf]

As others have said, you might be in for a long fight here...

As much as you may hate to do it, pragmatically the most economical way may be to seek an agreement with the current tenants and get them out.

What's the tenant/landlord relationship been like during the four years? The email gives the impression that they're willing to move out, just want it to be more on their terms than yours...

If your tenants are both willing and tactful you could end up suffering for much longer than six months, better to get shot asap...

[Wings]

Rangeroverover said:

In the past I have resorted to paying the deposit and first months rent for tenants who don't want to move out.This is offered to them on the basis they have 7 days to vacate or all bets are off.

It sticks in my throat but is a better option than spending on lawyers and losing rent for an even longer period...you still have their deposit so you are really only losing one months rent

^^^^^Agree

I presently have a block of three flats, that i am preparing to dispose off, with two of the three flats being tenanted, with of those being occupied.

One flat i have just gone through the repossession process through the courts, the same using a Section 21 Notice under both new legislation and changes by recent case law. The process for me was slightly helped by the tenant having a 3 year custodial prison sentence, although i still enlisted the assistance of the court bailiffs.

The last sitting tenant I have just served a Section 21 Notice, and although I will still proceed with legal papers for repossession to the courts, i will still seek a financial and friendly settlement with the tenant, to leave the property of their own accord.

In the OP's situation, I would first read up on present legislation (see links above), obtain a copy of the original or latest tenancy agreement, and then obtain a copy of the Notice served upon the tenant. Then if the Notice has been served correctly, then immediately start the legal process for repossession through the courts. I would also not commence any remedial works until the property is vacant, and I would still look to come to a mutual financial settlement with the tenant/s.

[-Michael-]

call in the sheriffs!

[Joe5y]

Red Devil said:

OP, you need to read up on Section 8 and Section 21 notices. Which one was used? There are crucial differences.
In the meantime you must put your contractors on hold until you are certain that the tenants have vacated.

It was a section 21 notice served.

Contractors put back.

Now I need to rearrange work (self employed but have booked next week off in preparation).

[Joe5y]

PHCorvette said:

Sorry that is just some guidance, there is a change to the S21 requirements if the AST started after Oct 1st 2015 or the fixed portion of the AST expired after the 1st Oct 2015.

Here is Section 21 of the HA http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/50/sectio...

and here is section 37 of the Deregulations Act 2015 which amends Section 21 of the HA http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/20/sectio...

Here is some guidance on how to rent for tenants and landlords: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/how-to-...

good luck, the powers are now swift and effective if the notice was correctly served. In the past I had the local authority inform some tenants, in bloody writing, that as they had kids they may as well sit where they are as there is fk all chance of them being evicted any time soon. took 8 months to get rid but thankfully they at least paid their rent.

Some other guidance on serving notice https://www.gov.uk/guidance/gaining-possession-of-...

Edited by PHCorvette on Tuesday 19th January 02:00

Thank you, I will have a read through these tonight so I completely clued up.

They have also been told to stay put and that the council will not help them as they currently have a roof over their heads.

[Joe5y]

the_lone_wolf said:

As others have said, you might be in for a long fight here...

As much as you may hate to do it, pragmatically the most economical way may be to seek an agreement with the current tenants and get them out.

What's the tenant/landlord relationship been like during the four years? The email gives the impression that they're willing to move out, just want it to be more on their terms than yours...

If your tenants are both willing and tactful you could end up suffering for much longer than six months, better to get shot asap...

I have been advised not to enter into any short term agreement as this is a breach of landlord / tenancy agreements. Added to this the agency that I used will not entertain the idea.

The relationship is actually very good. 9/10 he contacts me directly for problems or questions. He has been more than happy for me to pop over with contractors to measure up in recent weeks and hasn't wanted the 2x day notice required (although I have always stuck to this agreement as to not invade privacy). He seems very happy with me having put in new showers and satisfied any requirements he has had.

It's me that has the resentment towards them, although I have not acted on this or shown it. Just frustrating when you see that every carpet has burn marks on (one in the living room from him putting a hot saucepan on the floor fresh off the hob, full of beans). Walls with holes and kids paint on. Wall paper ripped. Driveway with oil stains from his car DIY 'hobby' - although I have recently learnt that he has just registered as a director of a car repair "shop" at this address.

All this I have taken on the chin and have everything in place to make the house lovely again. Just want the buggers out.

[the_lone_wolf]

Joe5y said:

...I have recently learnt that he has just registered as a director of a car repair "shop" at this address...

This would almost certainly breach the tenancy agreement wouldn't it? It certainly would with any TA I've seen

I see your point about a short term agreement, and as a tenant myself, I feel your pain!! With regards to the damage I'd insist he attend the check out and get photos of everything, explain that you intend to make deductions and what they're for but bear in mind it is his home and he will be entitled to reasonable wear and tear

If it does seem like the guy is genuinely intending to move out without giving you grief I'd say don't do anything to rock the boat. Even if he takes a few months I'd wager that's still the quickest way you'll see the back of him compared to ending up using the courts...

Did you give notice under Section 8 or Section 21? I'm not sure on s.8 stuff but if it's s.21 be 100% certain you protected the deposit correctly, including protecting and serving the prescribed information within the 30 day time limit, if the tenant gets shirty and informed with you at a later date and the deposit hasn't been handled correctly you will be liable for a penalty and any s.21 notice that was issued while your obligations remain undischarged will be invalid...

[wolf1]

To be fair OP unless you have given then more notice than the two months mentioned then quite a few would struggle to finance and find other accommodation suitable to them in such a short time frame, especially as they appear to have been there for a few years.

[Joe5y]

the_lone_wolf said:

This would almost certainly breach the tenancy agreement wouldn't it? It certainly would with any TA I've seen

He's been in breach for 2 years now as he has 2x un-licensed vehicles on the drive and has had 2x more people staying there than appears on the TA.

the_lone_wolf said:

I see your point about a short term agreement, and as a tenant myself, I feel your pain!! With regards to the damage I'd insist he attend the check out and get photos of everything, explain that you intend to make deductions and what they're for but bear in mind it is his home and he will be entitled to reasonable wear and tear

The check-out clerk is booked for Monday (via the agency) and the tenant has taken a day off work to be there also. The carpet(s) are well out of the time frame to be claimable although this doesn't mean he should be able to burn them as he sees fit. The other damage will have to be chased from his deposit / small claims. Driveway is ruined from his 2x cars on the drive dropping oil for 2+ years. Holes in the roof / walls. 2x doors of hinges. Built in cupboards pulled out and disposed. The kitchen is an absolute state.

the_lone_wolf said:

If it does seem like the guy is genuinely intending to move out without giving you grief I'd say don't do anything to rock the boat. Even if he takes a few months I'd wager that's still the quickest way you'll see the back of him compared to ending up using the courts...

Unfortunately this is what I am thinking that I will have to do.

the_lone_wolf said:

Did you give notice under Section 8 or Section 21? I'm not sure on s.8 stuff but if it's s.21 be 100% certain you protected the deposit correctly, including protecting and serving the prescribed information within the 30 day time limit, if the tenant gets shirty and informed with you at a later date and the deposit hasn't been handled correctly you will be liable for a penalty and any s.21 notice that was issued while your obligations remain undischarged will be invalid...

It was a section 21 notice served. The deposit is protected in the correct accounts as per the TA with the agency.

Edited by Joe5y on Tuesday 19th January 20:06

[Joe5y]

wolf1 said:

To be fair OP unless you have given then more notice than the two months mentioned then quite a few would struggle to finance and find other accommodation suitable to them in such a short time frame, especially as they appear to have been there for a few years.

Maybe so, sort of defeats the idea of a notice period no?

Luckily I am not in this situation but if I was what would happen in the following circumstances;

I serve notice for say 1st feb. I plan for all work(s) to be completed within a week and have new tenants lined up for 7th feb. I only have enough money to cover the work(s) and one weeks loss of rent. Surely many landlord are in the situation that the mortgage is covered by the rent?

[PHCorvette]

it is a pain.

Currently served s21 to two fantastic tenants of mine. I have rented to them at way below market rates but in return the place has been faultlessly looked after and that, to me, is worth its weight. however this has shielded them from actual rates for the style they are now used to and do not have an adequate deposit saved for moving on.

They have a child so the council has to act to support them, if it can, however it has a potential to prove difficult to move them on. As it happens they are now looking at buying another place off me with a deposit gift from their parents, fingers crossed.

We are both, it seems, fortunate in that our tenancies were under the pre oct 15 change so the requirements, whilst strict, are not as strict on the notice. Get what was sent to them and post it up on here but you are looking at probably waiting for them to move.

The other flat where the council wrote and told them to stay put, it took them 4 months to move on.

Good luck. We are moving out of the rental market for a while to capitalise and wait for any bubble to burst, it can be a stressful job looking after things but the financial gains can be great.

[the_lone_wolf]

Joe5y said:

I serve notice for say 1st feb. I plan for all work(s) to be completed within a week and have new tenants lined up for 7th feb. I only have enough money to cover the work(s) and one weeks loss of rent.

s.21 is little more than a formal request for vacant possession, only a court can order the tenant to leave and even then physically removing them can take much longer. If I were a landlord I wouldn't be booking builders until I knew I had a vacant property Downtime between tenants, especially long term ones, and repairs would be just another cost of the business...

WRT to the deposit, and without wanting to sound picky or teach you to suck eggs, your wording was a little ambiguous. You could interpret your reply as it being the agent that's holding the deposit, you know it must be registered with one of the three official schemes? (MyDeposits, Tenancy Deposit Scheme, Deposit Protection Scheme)

Also, was the prescribed information served? Presumably by the agent? It's equally as important as actually protecting the deposit. Like I said not being picky, just trying to make sure you're covered as if either of these requirements hasn't been done your s.21 notice isn't worth anything and you'll have to fulfil both requirements then serve another s.21 notice for another two months time!!

On top of that you'd be left liable and defenceless should the tenant decide to come after you (he'd be entitled to the return of the deposit and additionally a penalty amount of between one and three times the deposit payable by you)

[PHCorvette]

the prescribed information being the "how to rent" guide? my understanding was this only became a requirement fairly recently and was not retrospectively applied to existing tenancies such as the one in the case of the OP.

Has that changed?

If, as it sounds, its a fully managed service either the agents have done this or they would be the ones liable in the case of a dispute as a result of not doing things properly.

[the_lone_wolf]

PHCorvette said:

the prescribed information being the "how to rent" guide? my understanding was this only became a requirement fairly recently and was not retrospectively applied to existing tenancies such as the one in the case of the OP.

Has that changed?

If, as it sounds, its a fully managed service either the agents have done this or they would be the ones liable in the case of a dispute as a result of not doing things properly.

Prescribed Information has been required to have been served since 6th April 2007, same as protecting the deposit

The "How to Rent" guide is a new requirement in addition to the prescribed information

See s.213/14/15 of the Housing Act 2004 (enacted in 2007) as modified by the Localism Act 2011 and Deregulation Act 2015.

Information required to be given by a landlord (or agent) to the tenant within 30 days of the date of receipt of the deposit (not the start of tenancy or signing of agreement) is given in the Housing (Tenancy Deposits) (Prescribed Information) Order 2007 - much more than a basic leaflet

Each scheme produces its own documentation containing the information that landlords can give to tenants

[PHCorvette]

assuming a deposit was taken, where no deposit was taken the issue of the deposit scheme guidance being moot. Though you would expect most tenancies to have a deposit, not all do.