Served notice; tenants refusing to move - HELP.
Discussion
PHCorvette said:
assuming a deposit was taken, where no deposit was taken the issue of the deposit scheme guidance being moot. Though you would expect most tenancies to have a deposit, not all do.
Indeed, not possible to give your tenant information about the scheme holding their deposit or to protect it when they never gave one... 
There's been a few cases where landlords have attempted to argue that deposits were merely advance rent payments or some such, usually doesn't end well
Thanks again for all advice.
To be clear on a few bits;
I own the house. It is a fully managed through an estate agency which they took the deposit (1.5 months @ £2025.) This is held in one of the schemes that by law it has to be.
The section 21 was served by them on my formal request. I requested this 7 days before their rent date but to keep things simple the section 21 was served on the rent date cycle.
The section 21 (4)(a) seems to consist of a 1 page document with the relevant names, addresses etc on. I will post this tomorrow once I have had chance to blank sensitive data out.
To be clear on a few bits;
I own the house. It is a fully managed through an estate agency which they took the deposit (1.5 months @ £2025.) This is held in one of the schemes that by law it has to be.
The section 21 was served by them on my formal request. I requested this 7 days before their rent date but to keep things simple the section 21 was served on the rent date cycle.
The section 21 (4)(a) seems to consist of a 1 page document with the relevant names, addresses etc on. I will post this tomorrow once I have had chance to blank sensitive data out.
The problem you will have is if they want the council to help them they will be told not to move until they are served eviction papers by a bailiff. That's possibly what there doing. If they leave af the end of the section 21 notice date they have made themselves intentionally homeless in the eyes of the local housing authority.
The other issue you have is on a reference as they have damaged your house. Do you do a good one and get rid or do you do a bad one and get stuck with them.
The other issue you have is on a reference as they have damaged your house. Do you do a good one and get rid or do you do a bad one and get stuck with them.
surveyor_101 said:
The problem you will have is if they want the council to help them they will be told not to move until they are served eviction papers by a bailiff. That's possibly what there doing. If they leave af the end of the section 21 notice date they have made themselves intentionally homeless in the eyes of the local housing authority.
The other issue you have is on a reference as they have damaged your house. Do you do a good one and get rid or do you do a bad one and get stuck with them.
They have already been told this (according to the Agency). Although I am not sure if this is just the agency giving me dud information.The other issue you have is on a reference as they have damaged your house. Do you do a good one and get rid or do you do a bad one and get stuck with them.
It's not me that gives the reference, that again falls into the agencies hands. They have in actual fact refused to find them a new house and told them to look via another agency owing to the damage caused. They haven't been model tenants either. Catch 22 isn't - refuse to help, bad reference and hold back some if not all of their deposit just means that I'll have to put up with them for many more months.
Anyway, the S21 served is here; not that it'll show anything owing to sensitive data being removed. (It was also served with a covering letter stating that it is a S21 and the notice period etc etc
Joe5y said:
To be clear on a few bits;
I own the house. It is a fully managed through an estate agency which they took the deposit (1.5 months @ £2025.) This is held in one of the schemes that by law it has to be.
Thanks for the clarification, and sorry about the repeated requests I own the house. It is a fully managed through an estate agency which they took the deposit (1.5 months @ £2025.) This is held in one of the schemes that by law it has to be.
The only thing that could trip you up is the agent failing to give the tenant the Prescribed Information, the law puts equal importance on the giving of information as actually protecting the deposit.If they've not, after four years I'd not mention it and cross your fingers it doesn't get messy, if they get Shelter or someone like that onside they'll be all over your paperwork!!
Hopefully it all goes cleanly and you get your property back as soon as possible...
Joe5y said:
They have already been told this (according to the Agency). Although I am not sure if this is just the agency giving me dud information.
It's not me that gives the reference, that again falls into the agencies hands. They have in actual fact refused to find them a new house and told them to look via another agency owing to the damage caused. They haven't been model tenants either. Catch 22 isn't - refuse to help, bad reference and hold back some if not all of their deposit just means that I'll have to put up with them for many more months.
Anyway, the S21 served is here; not that it'll show anything owing to sensitive data being removed. (It was also served with a covering letter stating that it is a S21 and the notice period etc etc
The issues that jumps out to me is that the agents have dated the issuing of the notice for exactly 2 months. It's not me that gives the reference, that again falls into the agencies hands. They have in actual fact refused to find them a new house and told them to look via another agency owing to the damage caused. They haven't been model tenants either. Catch 22 isn't - refuse to help, bad reference and hold back some if not all of their deposit just means that I'll have to put up with them for many more months.
Anyway, the S21 served is here; not that it'll show anything owing to sensitive data being removed. (It was also served with a covering letter stating that it is a S21 and the notice period etc etc
The tenant must have a minimum of 2 months notice which if the agents dated it the 24th then the tenant cannot have valid notice until the 25th and its arguable that it should be the 26th is the earliest if hand delivered.
ie notice date 24 November 2015 The notice expires 24 January 2016 is not 2 months notice with service.
We would always give the notice a min of 5 days before the notice period. Ie notice would be dated 19 November 2015 with the expiry date of 24 Jan 2016. The tenant thus has 2 clear months notice and a few days.
What date is the covering letter and how was it issued?
The agents also have not used a 'catch all' term which has been pretty standard for many years. " 24 January 2016 Or at the end of the period of the tenancy which will end after the expiry of two months from service of this notice."
This allows some flexibility that if the dates have been screwed up for the notice to still be valid with the courts discretion.
As other have said you cant start anything until after the notice has expired. The delima I would suggest is is the notice valid in terms of giving 2 months notice? I dont think it is. Personally I would re-issue it today. You will just have time if done today for your agents to re-issue the notice and give 2 months notice. I would also suggest they use the catch all term after the expiry of the date. Are they a Letting agent or an Estate Agent that does a bit of letting on the side?
Edited by superlightr on Wednesday 20th January 10:02
Edited by superlightr on Wednesday 20th January 10:04
Edited by superlightr on Wednesday 20th January 10:05
Edited by superlightr on Wednesday 20th January 10:10
superlightr said:
The issues that jumps out to me is that the agents have dated the issuing of the notice for exactly 2 months.
The tenant must have a minimum of 2 months notice which if the agents dated it the 24th then the tenant cannot have valid notice until the 25th and its arguable that it should be the 26th is the earliest if hand delivered.
ie notice date 24 November 2015 The notice expires 24 January 2016 is not 2 months notice with service.
We would always give the notice a min of 5 days before the notice period. Ie notice would be dated 19 November 2015 with the expiry date of 24 Jan 2016. The tenant thus has 2 clear months notice and a few days.
What date is the covering letter and how was it issued?
The agents also have not used a 'catch all' term which has been pretty standard for many years. " 24 January 2016 Or at the end of the period of the tenancy which will end after the expiry of two months from service of this notice."
This allows some flexibility that if the dates have been screwed up for the notice to still be valid with the courts discretion.
As other have said you cant start anything until after the notice has expired. The delima I would suggest is is the notice valid in terms of giving 2 months notice? I dont think it is. Personally I would re-issue it today. You will just have time if done today for your agents to re-issue the notice and give 2 months notice. I would also suggest they use the catch all term after the expiry of the date. Are they a Letting agent or an Estate Agent that does a bit of letting on the side?
I will certainly ask for clarification on the above from the agency. The tenant must have a minimum of 2 months notice which if the agents dated it the 24th then the tenant cannot have valid notice until the 25th and its arguable that it should be the 26th is the earliest if hand delivered.
ie notice date 24 November 2015 The notice expires 24 January 2016 is not 2 months notice with service.
We would always give the notice a min of 5 days before the notice period. Ie notice would be dated 19 November 2015 with the expiry date of 24 Jan 2016. The tenant thus has 2 clear months notice and a few days.
What date is the covering letter and how was it issued?
The agents also have not used a 'catch all' term which has been pretty standard for many years. " 24 January 2016 Or at the end of the period of the tenancy which will end after the expiry of two months from service of this notice."
This allows some flexibility that if the dates have been screwed up for the notice to still be valid with the courts discretion.
As other have said you cant start anything until after the notice has expired. The delima I would suggest is is the notice valid in terms of giving 2 months notice? I dont think it is. Personally I would re-issue it today. You will just have time if done today for your agents to re-issue the notice and give 2 months notice. I would also suggest they use the catch all term after the expiry of the date. Are they a Letting agent or an Estate Agent that does a bit of letting on the side?
The actual date for me to take possession was going to be the 25th Jan owing to the 24th falling on a Sunday. The check out clerk is still booked according to the agency.
Are saying that it isn't 2 months notice owing to the amount of days of notice served? If this is the case how does a rent cycle work as that will always fall on a calendar month and doesn't take into account the amount of days?
The agency is both - or at least it claims to be. That said the lettings bit is managed by one main guy and his 'assistant' both of which are terrible at returning calls, being proactive, and formulating easily deciphered e-mails or letters.
The S21 was e-mailed to the tenant which the tenant confirmed receipt and popped in the following Saturday to sign a copy.
Devil2575 said:
Joe5y said:
(1.5 months @ £2025.)
£1350 a month rent!!
London or just a big house?
It's a converted 3 bed semi which now has a 4th open plan bedroom, garage and 3 car driveway. It's also in the catchment for 4 of the best local schools and within walking distance of the Waterloo train line.
It's also in Wokingham which doesn't help.
Locals 3 beds rent for £1100 - £1200.
Joe5y said:
I will certainly ask for clarification on the above from the agency.
The actual date for me to take possession was going to be the 25th Jan owing to the 24th falling on a Sunday. The check out clerk is still booked according to the agency.
Are saying that it isn't 2 months notice owing to the amount of days of notice served? If this is the case how does a rent cycle work as that will always fall on a calendar month and doesn't take into account the amount of days?
The agency is both - or at least it claims to be. That said the lettings bit is managed by one main guy and his 'assistant' both of which are terrible at returning calls, being proactive, and formulating easily deciphered e-mails or letters.
The S21 was e-mailed to the tenant which the tenant confirmed receipt and popped in the following Saturday to sign a copy.
The expiry date is correct to be on the last day of a rental term but the notice should be issues some days before the start of the 2 months notice ie 4 days before to allow for service. Even hand delivered has been found to be effective from the next day rather then the day it was physically given to the tenant. Thus giving notice 2mths and 7 days before is good practice.The actual date for me to take possession was going to be the 25th Jan owing to the 24th falling on a Sunday. The check out clerk is still booked according to the agency.
Are saying that it isn't 2 months notice owing to the amount of days of notice served? If this is the case how does a rent cycle work as that will always fall on a calendar month and doesn't take into account the amount of days?
The agency is both - or at least it claims to be. That said the lettings bit is managed by one main guy and his 'assistant' both of which are terrible at returning calls, being proactive, and formulating easily deciphered e-mails or letters.
The S21 was e-mailed to the tenant which the tenant confirmed receipt and popped in the following Saturday to sign a copy.
Would recommend using a dedicated Letting Agency not an estate agent in future.
superlightr said:
Joe5y said:
I will certainly ask for clarification on the above from the agency.
The actual date for me to take possession was going to be the 25th Jan owing to the 24th falling on a Sunday. The check out clerk is still booked according to the agency.
Are saying that it isn't 2 months notice owing to the amount of days of notice served? If this is the case how does a rent cycle work as that will always fall on a calendar month and doesn't take into account the amount of days?
The agency is both - or at least it claims to be. That said the lettings bit is managed by one main guy and his 'assistant' both of which are terrible at returning calls, being proactive, and formulating easily deciphered e-mails or letters.
The S21 was e-mailed to the tenant which the tenant confirmed receipt and popped in the following Saturday to sign a copy.
The expiry date is correct to be on the last day of a rental term but the notice should be issues some days before the start of the 2 months notice ie 4 days before to allow for service. Even hand delivered has been found to be effective from the next day rather then the day it was physically given to the tenant. Thus giving notice 2mths and 7 days before is good practice.The actual date for me to take possession was going to be the 25th Jan owing to the 24th falling on a Sunday. The check out clerk is still booked according to the agency.
Are saying that it isn't 2 months notice owing to the amount of days of notice served? If this is the case how does a rent cycle work as that will always fall on a calendar month and doesn't take into account the amount of days?
The agency is both - or at least it claims to be. That said the lettings bit is managed by one main guy and his 'assistant' both of which are terrible at returning calls, being proactive, and formulating easily deciphered e-mails or letters.
The S21 was e-mailed to the tenant which the tenant confirmed receipt and popped in the following Saturday to sign a copy.
Would recommend using a dedicated Letting Agency not an estate agent in future.
So I guess the general consensus is to allow them to stay whilst keeping them happy so they pay for the time they're there? Don't know how I'll do this however as the agency don't want to enter into a short term (week(s) or 1 months TA). So how can I do this on my own and protect myself?
Most tenancies will just roll on a month to month basis - so you are protected.
If your estate agents are confident that they have given the right notice then your next step is to apply to the courts for a possession order. You can do this or your solicitors can do this. Did you take out any legal/rent protection cover?
As said you can start the court process - it may not get bought up about the dates anyway.
If your estate agents are confident that they have given the right notice then your next step is to apply to the courts for a possession order. You can do this or your solicitors can do this. Did you take out any legal/rent protection cover?
As said you can start the court process - it may not get bought up about the dates anyway.
OP you need to take a more active part in being a landlord, particularly before commencing legal repossession proceedings.
Whilst the Section 21 Notice is cutting the notice period fine, as poster "superlightr" pointed out, it is always advisable when serving the Notice, to accord extra days in addition to the 2 months notice period.
The Assured Shorthand Tenancy Notices and Prescribed Requirements (England) Regulations 2015 (link below), published and prescribed the form that the new Section 21 Notice must be used from 1 October 2015.
From the above date, there was a new requirement that a valid Section 21 Notice could only be served, if the tenant had been given both the Energy Performance Certificate (hereafter EPC) and a currant Gas Safety Certificate (hereafter GSC). It is therefore advisable that when serving a Section 21 Notice, to attach copies of both the EPC and GSC, the same removing any chance of possible arguments arising during court proceedings.
OP check the starting date on tenancy agreement/s, comparing the starting date of the same against the date on the Section 21 Notice, ensure the tenant has received a copy of the EPC and GSC, check no issues with tenant/council for repairs to rental property.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/1646/pdfs/...
Whilst the Section 21 Notice is cutting the notice period fine, as poster "superlightr" pointed out, it is always advisable when serving the Notice, to accord extra days in addition to the 2 months notice period.
The Assured Shorthand Tenancy Notices and Prescribed Requirements (England) Regulations 2015 (link below), published and prescribed the form that the new Section 21 Notice must be used from 1 October 2015.
From the above date, there was a new requirement that a valid Section 21 Notice could only be served, if the tenant had been given both the Energy Performance Certificate (hereafter EPC) and a currant Gas Safety Certificate (hereafter GSC). It is therefore advisable that when serving a Section 21 Notice, to attach copies of both the EPC and GSC, the same removing any chance of possible arguments arising during court proceedings.
OP check the starting date on tenancy agreement/s, comparing the starting date of the same against the date on the Section 21 Notice, ensure the tenant has received a copy of the EPC and GSC, check no issues with tenant/council for repairs to rental property.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/1646/pdfs/...
Wings said:
OP you need to take a more active part in being a landlord, particularly before commencing legal repossession proceedings.
Whilst the Section 21 Notice is cutting the notice period fine, as poster "superlightr" pointed out, it is always advisable when serving the Notice, to accord extra days in addition to the 2 months notice period.
The Assured Shorthand Tenancy Notices and Prescribed Requirements (England) Regulations 2015 (link below), published and prescribed the form that the new Section 21 Notice must be used from 1 October 2015.
From the above date, there was a new requirement that a valid Section 21 Notice could only be served, if the tenant had been given both the Energy Performance Certificate (hereafter EPC) and a currant Gas Safety Certificate (hereafter GSC). It is therefore advisable that when serving a Section 21 Notice, to attach copies of both the EPC and GSC, the same removing any chance of possible arguments arising during court proceedings.
OP check the starting date on tenancy agreement/s, comparing the starting date of the same against the date on the Section 21 Notice, ensure the tenant has received a copy of the EPC and GSC, check no issues with tenant/council for repairs to rental property.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/1646/pdfs/...
Thank you for all this advice - I have a meeting with the Agency tomorrow so will swot up a little tonight.Whilst the Section 21 Notice is cutting the notice period fine, as poster "superlightr" pointed out, it is always advisable when serving the Notice, to accord extra days in addition to the 2 months notice period.
The Assured Shorthand Tenancy Notices and Prescribed Requirements (England) Regulations 2015 (link below), published and prescribed the form that the new Section 21 Notice must be used from 1 October 2015.
From the above date, there was a new requirement that a valid Section 21 Notice could only be served, if the tenant had been given both the Energy Performance Certificate (hereafter EPC) and a currant Gas Safety Certificate (hereafter GSC). It is therefore advisable that when serving a Section 21 Notice, to attach copies of both the EPC and GSC, the same removing any chance of possible arguments arising during court proceedings.
OP check the starting date on tenancy agreement/s, comparing the starting date of the same against the date on the Section 21 Notice, ensure the tenant has received a copy of the EPC and GSC, check no issues with tenant/council for repairs to rental property.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/1646/pdfs/...
Whilst the new Regulations apply in their entirety only to ASTs granted after 1 October 2015, section 4 of the same provides that the new forms must be used. The allowance of extra days when serving the Notice, the providing copies of EPC and GSC are intended to avoid possible arguments during court proceedings.
Wings said:
Whilst the new Regulations apply in their entirety only to ASTs granted after 1 October 2015, section 4 of the same provides that the new forms must be used. The allowance of extra days when serving the Notice, the providing copies of EPC and GSC are intended to avoid possible arguments during court proceedings.
from memory the new forms MAY be used for TA started before the 1.10.15 but don't have to be. If started after 1.10.15 the new form must. happy to be corrected ofcourse So the OP old form is fine but yes the agency should also have issued EPC Gas safety and How to rent booklet with the notice and given it with more then 2 months notice. The gov do like to make it easy to screw up and muddle the waters!
Edited by superlightr on Wednesday 20th January 22:05
Service of notice, if posted for example, is accepted if the postal date is the day prior to the commencement of the rent cycle. IE rent paid on 25th, stamped on the 24th. You can hand personally on the 25th and 2 months notice expires on the 2nd cycle which would be the 24th. You don't need to give 5 days lead it just helps to make sure its served.
Personally I print two exact copies and get both sets signed by myself and the tenants, they get one, I keep the other.
I'd say you are covered, if the prescribed information wasn't provided then that's an agents liability but you have discovered just how useless most (not all) agents are. Fully managed is a con, you will learn the lesson for next time don't bother (though the tax deductible probably pays for it...)
Personally I print two exact copies and get both sets signed by myself and the tenants, they get one, I keep the other.
I'd say you are covered, if the prescribed information wasn't provided then that's an agents liability but you have discovered just how useless most (not all) agents are. Fully managed is a con, you will learn the lesson for next time don't bother (though the tax deductible probably pays for it...)
PHCorvette said:
...if the prescribed information wasn't provided then that's an agents liability...
It's the landlord who is liable for the penalty, after that the agent and landlord would need to sort it out between themselves...An agent being ultimately to blame won't validate an invalid s.21 notice either...
Hypothetically speaking of course...
PHCorvette said:
Service of notice, if posted for example, is accepted if the postal date is the day prior to the commencement of the rent cycle. IE rent paid on 25th, stamped on the 24th. You can hand personally on the 25th and 2 months notice expires on the 2nd cycle which would be the 24th. You don't need to give 5 days lead it just helps to make sure its served.
As above this has been done and they confirmed receipt plus signed 2x copies. PHCorvette said:
Personally I print two exact copies and get both sets signed by myself and the tenants, they get one, I keep the other.
I'd say you are covered, if the prescribed information wasn't provided then that's an agents liability but you have discovered just how useless most (not all) agents are. Fully managed is a con, you will learn the lesson for next time don't bother (though the tax deductible probably pays for it...)
Reason for going fully managed was that I negotiated them down from 11% to 6% having bought through them. Added to this I was setting up a business and just wanted to leave it up to someone else to look after. But as you say, lesson learnt here.I'd say you are covered, if the prescribed information wasn't provided then that's an agents liability but you have discovered just how useless most (not all) agents are. Fully managed is a con, you will learn the lesson for next time don't bother (though the tax deductible probably pays for it...)
the_lone_wolf said:
PHCorvette said:
...if the prescribed information wasn't provided then that's an agents liability...
It's the landlord who is liable for the penalty, after that the agent and landlord would need to sort it out between themselves...An agent being ultimately to blame won't validate an invalid s.21 notice either...
Hypothetically speaking of course...
But ultimately the sorting out is made easy thanks to money claim online. Agents providing a professional service would be in a sticky wicket but i'd be surprised if they didn't provide it as from memory the 3 schemes provide you the information as part of the singing processGassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff