Minor accident - who's at fault

[DTB77]

I had someone bump in to me on the way home today, and looking for guidance on liability - in the eyes of an insurance company / law rather than people's opinions on a moral perspective please (although I'm sure I'll get both!).

I'm going to keep the details pretty vague as its the principles I'm after rather than technicalities...

So in essence, I was on a off-motorway roundabout, in the left hand land, but turning right. My opponent was in the right hand lane, turning left. I was ahead of them and they clipped the rear-side of my car (on the wheel arch) as they tried to come off and I tried to carry round.

I travel that route regularly and cars always go right from the left hand lane. I've never seen anyone turn left from the right hand lane. However, they claimed that the road markings allowed them to turn left and my lane was only for turning left too. I've subsequently been on google maps and it would appear that, on the basis of the road markings, they are correct, I was in the wrong lane, she was in the right, I accept that.

However, I was ahead of her and perhaps she has a duty to anticipate the traffic and avoid me, coming from behind. Neither of us were indicating.

So the question is (and I'd prefer experienced opinions please - i.e. People that have been in similar situations, lawyers), in the eyes of the law / insurance company and the based upon the deliberately limited details I've provided, where does fault lie - being in the wrong lane, or driving in to someone that was ahead of you? Speeds were slow and there was no sudden movements.

Thanks

[dacouch]

Most likely to be deemed 50/50 eg you're both equally to blame, it entitles each insurer / driver to recover 50% of their losses from the other parties Insurer

[TwigtheWonderkid]

Nope, 100% your fault. You were in the wrong lane, and they weren't She had no reason to think the car on her left would not be going left, as you were in a left hand turn lane only.

[Rot box]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

Nope, 100% your fault. You were in the wrong lane, and they weren't She had no reason to think the car on her left would not be going left, as you were in a left hand turn lane only.

Wrong, wether OP was in the correct lane or not doesn't change the fact the other car changed postion when it wasn't clear to do so, they should have done a full lap of the roundabout and then came off when it was clear if necessary.

I imagine it may go 50/50, but i would argue the other car is more to blame than yourself.

[Nickyboy]

Rot box said:

Wrong, wether OP was in the correct lane or not doesn't change the fact the other car changed postion when it wasn't clear to do so, they should have done a full lap of the roundabout and then came off when it was clear if necessary.

I

It sounds more like the OP cut across the front of the other car as they rightly followed the lane, hard to tell exactly without seeing the junction and layout

[JacquesMesrine]

DTB77 said:

I had someone bump in to me on the way home today, and looking for guidance on liability - in the eyes of an insurance company / law rather than people's opinions on a moral perspective please (although I'm sure I'll get both!).

I'm going to keep the details pretty vague as its the principles I'm after rather than technicalities...

So in essence, I was on a off-motorway roundabout, in the left hand land, but turning right. My opponent was in the right hand lane, turning left. I was ahead of them and they clipped the rear-side of my car (on the wheel arch) as they tried to come off and I tried to carry round.

I travel that route regularly and cars always go right from the left hand lane. I've never seen anyone turn left from the right hand lane. However, they claimed that the road markings allowed them to turn left and my lane was only for turning left too. I've subsequently been on google maps and it would appear that, on the basis of the road markings, they are correct, I was in the wrong lane, she was in the right, I accept that.

However, I was ahead of her and perhaps she has a duty to anticipate the traffic and avoid me, coming from behind. Neither of us were indicating.

So the question is (and I'd prefer experienced opinions please - i.e. People that have been in similar situations, lawyers), in the eyes of the law / insurance company and the based upon the deliberately limited details I've provided, where does fault lie - being in the wrong lane, or driving in to someone that was ahead of you? Speeds were slow and there was no sudden movements.

Thanks

What's the "rear side of your car on the wheel arch"?

I know what my opinion would be and luckily we can now just give a load of opinions as the knowledgeable, but blunt, posters have left.

My opinion is you were 100% in the wrong, but it'll settle 50/50 as the insurance companies are all stitching everyone up and can be take your NCD off you and then claw back all their payments in one fell swoop by charging you £5000 next year and you won't be able to shop around as they've blacklisted you

[DTB77]

My hunch is 50/50 and it's not worth either of us claiming - we might as well suck it up and pay for our own damage (mine is worse, she seemed fairly ambivalent to the slight damage to her car)

[Beggarall]

Sounds like an extraordinary roundabout - how many lanes approaching it? If both lanes road-signed to go left then you have apparently cut across the other driver outside you - but they should have watched to ensure that you were following your line....I guess 50/50 - would be helpful to see google map.

[KungFuPanda]

At best 50-50. At worst, you'll go down 100%.

Why would anyone go right from the left hand lane of a roundabout??

[chazwind]

100% your fault. You were in the wrong lane, and cut across him.

I know, and hate, the type of roundabout you describe, but you really have no argument whatsoever.

[Retroman]

As mentioned, in terms of insurance determining liability, it is quite likely to go 50/50.

You'll blame the third party and the third party will blame you and without any evidence to verify who was wrong, that's what will likely push the liability split.

[Dromedary66]

DTB77 said:

I'm going to keep the details pretty vague as its the principles I'm after rather than technicalities...

Why? If you posted up the google streetview then I suspect a consensus would be reached.

[xjay1337]

50/50.
But if you travel it regularly surely you'd know what lanes you need to be in
can you google map the junction?

[shambolic]

Your lane says left turn only and you didn't. Really only you to blame.

[vonhosen]

Each individual case will be judged on the full facts.

Here is an appeal ruling for a roundabout case. It won't be exactly the same as yours (because each case is individual) but it will highlight the sort of considerations when determining.
http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2003/354.h...


Roundabouts
Avoid getting alongside others & don't trust people to take the exit you think they are best positioned to take. Be prepared to go around or even take an exit you didn't initially intend to in order to avoid a collision.

Edited by vonhosen on Wednesday 3rd February 22:39

[DTB77]

Dromedary66 said:

Why? If you posted up the google streetview then I suspect a consensus would be reached.

Consensus on PH? Never

I actually don't know how to post up the Google street view but I can tell you where it was so you can satisfy your own curiosity - J20 of the m25. I was coming from the m25 anti-clockwise, trying to go on the a41 north, they were trying to enter m25 anti-clockwise coming from a41 north. As I've said, I now know I was in the wrong lane, but feel she should've still seen me (had an awareness of me)

I've just been out to look again at the damage and it is relatively minor so on reflection I'll probably let it drop and I get the sense they will too

Edited by DTB77 on Wednesday 3rd February 22:45

[Hamish Finn]

vonhosen said:

Roundabouts
Avoid getting alongside others & don't trust people to take the exit you think they are best positioned to take. Be prepared to go around or even take an exit you didn't initially intend to in order to avoid a collision.

So it's likely to be 50:50 as everyone else has said?

[vonhosen]

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/London+Orbital...

[vonhosen]

Hamish Finn said:

vonhosen said:

Roundabouts
Avoid getting alongside others & don't trust people to take the exit you think they are best positioned to take. Be prepared to go around or even take an exit you didn't initially intend to in order to avoid a collision.

So it's likely to be 50:50 as everyone else has said?

That's just my advice above, each case will be viewed on it's own facts. The case I gave a link to is not analogous with the OPs case, but is provided to show considerations of the court.

[shambolic]

Same type of motorway off slip. Both lanes can take first exit. Lane 1 can only take first exit.
So if you go round it's your fault and I know people will say about other driver changing lanes but due to road markings you shouldn't be there.
Edit. Arrow under white van is showing same as arrow further back on slip.