Dispute over heating - Landlord & tenant
Discussion
S1MMA said:
stuthemong said:
Tell B tenants to get electric heaters for during the day
That was my initial thought - but they are not agreeing to do this. They feel that they should be able to have the heating on when they want to, which I can't argue with, but likewise I should too!What I may suggest is that I will pay for 4 hours heating a day as I agreed to, and split the bill like that. That way I am paying for what I use. I'm not trying to get out of paying, but I won't pay for their heating when I haven't agreed to it.
S1MMA said:
MW-M5 said:
Playing Devil's advocate here but if the house is worth £25m and there are 4 flats your rent, one would assume, will be at least several £000s a month. Therefore using you own argument isn't this abit silly over a few hundred quid heating bill every few months?
As I said I'm only playing Devil's advocate.
I rent one flat, and yes it is several £000 a month. As I said I'm only playing Devil's advocate.
It's more the principal of the matter than the outright cost, I don't like being told that I have to subsidise someone else's heating bill. Does anyone else here pay for their next door neighbors heating?
If you had to buy your next door neighbor their breakfast every day, even though it's a small amount of money relatively it doesn't make it right!
My point here is that I have no say or influence over something that I am paying half of, how is it fair that B can do whatever he wants or his tenant wants and I suffer for it?
Why can I not have the heating on for 4 hours a day and B's tenants suffer the cold all day, rather than the reverse? Why do they have more rights than me?
Hope that makes more sense.
Its realistic to think that the amount of time the heating will be on will varie. 4 hrs a day in winter is not really enough.
Turn your radiators down/off?
How much are you actually talking about in terms of rent and heating bill? bearing in mind in the spring/summer its going to be less. Mountain/molehill ?
We have a nice house up for rent £2750 in Sussex walking of mainline station available for rent and you can control the heating all by yourself!
AyBee said:
S1MMA said:
stuthemong said:
Tell B tenants to get electric heaters for during the day
That was my initial thought - but they are not agreeing to do this. They feel that they should be able to have the heating on when they want to, which I can't argue with, but likewise I should too!What I may suggest is that I will pay for 4 hours heating a day as I agreed to, and split the bill like that. That way I am paying for what I use. I'm not trying to get out of paying, but I won't pay for their heating when I haven't agreed to it.
Red Devil said:
These statements are mutually contradictory. What do the Land Registry title document(s) say?
You are quite right, I should have said the apartments are owned by 2 parties. I believe B is the freeholder, but I've not seen the land registry document, it's only what I have been told by the previous tenant. Red Devil said:
If B is a Heat Supplier (which is quite possible imo) then he will have to comply with the legislation - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2014/3120/conte...
As the link posted earlier makes clear it could get quite interesting.
Some landlords and property management companies may find these new arrangement may not sit well with existing tenancy or lease provisions, which stipulate that individual tenants are required to make a pro-rata contribution to heating bills or costs. This is something to bare in mind. It might be that tenanancies and leases will need to be amended in light of these changes.
Underline is mine: the speeling mistakes are not
Yes this legislation should make it interesting!As the link posted earlier makes clear it could get quite interesting.
Some landlords and property management companies may find these new arrangement may not sit well with existing tenancy or lease provisions, which stipulate that individual tenants are required to make a pro-rata contribution to heating bills or costs. This is something to bare in mind. It might be that tenanancies and leases will need to be amended in light of these changes.
Underline is mine: the speeling mistakes are not
AyBee said:
The only way you can deal with this is by reaching a solution with tenant 3. It would seem fair that you only pay for 4/19th of the bill and he pays 15/19ths, but unfortunately you're contractually obliged to pay half. This would have rung alarm bells with me when signing the contract but that's easy to say in hindsight.
You live and you learn, this is the 2nd AST for this property, I've lived there just over a year. In the first year there was a different arrangement for the heating, and the cost was not built in to the contract, this has now changed and the first bill has arrived which is why this has kicked off.The downstairs tenant will not agree to pay £500 heating bills per 2 months, but as said above that's between them and their landlord. I will certainly not pay for something that I have not agreed on.
Right, just to update this generally.
I have an appointment with a housing solicitor booked in the diary now to go over everything, both the dispute and the Heat Network legislation.
I have made contact with the National Measurement and Regulation Office, who monitor and enforce the Heat Networks legislation, and I have presented them with the case to see if B is in breach of his duties (I think he will be).
This is a learning exercise for me, and thanks to those who have given valuable input.
I have an appointment with a housing solicitor booked in the diary now to go over everything, both the dispute and the Heat Network legislation.
I have made contact with the National Measurement and Regulation Office, who monitor and enforce the Heat Networks legislation, and I have presented them with the case to see if B is in breach of his duties (I think he will be).
This is a learning exercise for me, and thanks to those who have given valuable input.
But you have agreed, and that's the trouble.
Ultimately, you're going to have to find some way to work with your landlord and the other tenant that involves compromise to leave you all in a satisfactory position. I'd suggest an arrangement where you get a quote in for the works needed to divy the heating up, and split that cost equally. Might well be cheaper than paying for someone else's heating bill.
Ultimately, you're going to have to find some way to work with your landlord and the other tenant that involves compromise to leave you all in a satisfactory position. I'd suggest an arrangement where you get a quote in for the works needed to divy the heating up, and split that cost equally. Might well be cheaper than paying for someone else's heating bill.
Ekona said:
But you have agreed, and that's the trouble.
Ultimately, you're going to have to find some way to work with your landlord and the other tenant that involves compromise to leave you all in a satisfactory position. I'd suggest an arrangement where you get a quote in for the works needed to divy the heating up, and split that cost equally. Might well be cheaper than paying for someone else's heating bill.
No, not really. All of you stating what is in the contract is binding and that is all there is to it, are wrong.Ultimately, you're going to have to find some way to work with your landlord and the other tenant that involves compromise to leave you all in a satisfactory position. I'd suggest an arrangement where you get a quote in for the works needed to divy the heating up, and split that cost equally. Might well be cheaper than paying for someone else's heating bill.
"Is the tenancy agreement ‘unfair’
The tenancy agreement is a form of consumer contract and as such it must be in plain language which is clear and easy to understand. It must not contain any terms which could be ‘unfair’. This means, for example, that the tenancy agreement must not put either you or your landlord in a disadvantageous position, enable one party to change terms unilaterally without a valid reason or irrevocably bind you to terms with which you have had no time to become familiar. An unfair term is not valid in law and cannot be enforced."
from CAB. Didn't see anyone mention that who were stating how I am bang to rights. Is it unfair that I have no control over a heating system that I have to pay half of? Open to debate, I think YES. Let's see what the solicitor says.
I'm not paying for a new system, or anything to do with modifying their property! Why should I? It's not like my landlord or the other landlord have been so reasonable, honest and trustworthy that I'm going to now do them any favours!
superlightr said:
whats the cost of the bills and the cost of the rent?
I'm not willing to say how much I pay in rent on a public forum, the bill came in at £600 for 2 months heating for both apartments. It's a large 2 bed apartment in a prime central London area and is in line with the cost of that type of apartment in the area, although it's a bit dated so is larger than the other more modern apartments in its price range.
Moving is not a problem, and if it comes to it I will move. But I'd rather explore what my options are here first and see if I can come to a resolution. My landlord is trying to support me on this, but is easily bullied by B, so I have to defend myself.
Ekona said:
But you have agreed, and that's the trouble.
Residential leases are not totally binding. A landlord cannot write things into a lease that go against existing regulations - the legislation will always over-ride what is written into the lease despite being agreed by both parties. I have no idea if the current arrangement goes against existing regs, but if it does, then it can't be enforced.
S1MMA said:
No, not really. All of you stating what is in the contract is binding and that is all there is to it, are wrong.
"Is the tenancy agreement ‘unfair’
The tenancy agreement is a form of consumer contract and as such it must be in plain language which is clear and easy to understand. It must not contain any terms which could be ‘unfair’. This means, for example, that the tenancy agreement must not put either you or your landlord in a disadvantageous position, enable one party to change terms unilaterally without a valid reason or irrevocably bind you to terms with which you have had no time to become familiar. An unfair term is not valid in law and cannot be enforced."
from CAB. Didn't see anyone mention that who were stating how I am bang to rights. Is it unfair that I have no control over a heating system that I have to pay half of? Open to debate, I think YES. Let's see what the solicitor says.
I would say that it is not fundamentally unfair that you pay 50% of the heating costs for similar sized properties. And that is what you signed up to, as did the other tenant affected by this."Is the tenancy agreement ‘unfair’
The tenancy agreement is a form of consumer contract and as such it must be in plain language which is clear and easy to understand. It must not contain any terms which could be ‘unfair’. This means, for example, that the tenancy agreement must not put either you or your landlord in a disadvantageous position, enable one party to change terms unilaterally without a valid reason or irrevocably bind you to terms with which you have had no time to become familiar. An unfair term is not valid in law and cannot be enforced."
from CAB. Didn't see anyone mention that who were stating how I am bang to rights. Is it unfair that I have no control over a heating system that I have to pay half of? Open to debate, I think YES. Let's see what the solicitor says.
I would say it is unfair that you now refuse to pay half on that basis that you only want the heating on for 4 hours a day, something that any reasonable person would find inadequate.
But, you seem to want to get your own way regardless of the effects on everyone else involved. I suspect this will eventually see you looking for a new home when your current AST expires.
Anyone ever mentioned sociopathic tendencies to you by any chance?
S1MMA said:
I'm not willing to say how much I pay in rent on a public forum, the bill came in at £600 for 2 months heating for both apartments.
It's a large 2 bed apartment in a prime central London area and is in line with the cost of that type of apartment in the area, although it's a bit dated so is larger than the other more modern apartments in its price range.
Moving is not a problem, and if it comes to it I will move. But I'd rather explore what my options are here first and see if I can come to a resolution. My landlord is trying to support me on this, but is easily bullied by B, so I have to defend myself.
So £300 per flat for the heating over two winter months in a large, old (read non energy efficient) property and you are moaning. This actually doesn't sound too bad at all. It's a large 2 bed apartment in a prime central London area and is in line with the cost of that type of apartment in the area, although it's a bit dated so is larger than the other more modern apartments in its price range.
Moving is not a problem, and if it comes to it I will move. But I'd rather explore what my options are here first and see if I can come to a resolution. My landlord is trying to support me on this, but is easily bullied by B, so I have to defend myself.
PurpleMoonlight said:
I would say that it is not fundamentally unfair that you pay 50% of the heating costs for similar sized properties. And that is what you signed up to, as did the other tenant affected by this.
I would say it is unfair that you now refuse to pay half on that basis that you only want the heating on for 4 hours a day, something that any reasonable person would find inadequate.
But, you seem to want to get your own way regardless of the effects on everyone else involved. I suspect this will eventually see you looking for a new home when your current AST expires.
Anyone ever mentioned sociopathic tendencies to you by any chance?
Thanks for your comments on the thread, but they have all been useless. You know fI would say it is unfair that you now refuse to pay half on that basis that you only want the heating on for 4 hours a day, something that any reasonable person would find inadequate.
But, you seem to want to get your own way regardless of the effects on everyone else involved. I suspect this will eventually see you looking for a new home when your current AST expires.
Anyone ever mentioned sociopathic tendencies to you by any chance?
k all about what you are writing, so I suggest you keep it to yourself.You think I'm a sociopath because I won't pay half a heating bill when I'm not in the house 70-80% of the time the heating is on. LOL. You most likely don't even know what the word means.
Some more thoughts for those of you who are saying it's in the contract, it's binding:
This is from the FAQ on Heat Network legislation:
"9.1. The billing arrangements are written into the contract with the tenant and we are unable to change them. Can we continue charging the way we are now?
No, the Regulations (as a statutory instrument) have effect at criminal law. The Regulations must be complied with and contractual (civil) arrangements would not constitute a defence."
After reading more of the guidance, I have a good idea that he is in breach of the regulations. £5,000 max fine for being in breach. Oh dear.
For those saying I should buy meters etc:
"9.4. Can I pass on the charge of installing meters to my tenants?
Where meters must be installed, the heat supplier will be responsible for doing this. The Regulations allow for fixed and variable charges to be passed on to the final customer and any fixed costs for recovery of investment would need to be clear in the billing information (Regulation 9(7)(c))."
Ekona said:
The agreement doesn't seem remotely unfair to me. Half the size property, half the bill. How is that unfair?
Because I'm not in the building from 8am - 6pm, when the heating is on, so why should I pay for it. How is that so complicated to understand?Looks like we are on repeat here, some of you need to READ the thread before responding.
S1MMA said:
Thanks for your comments on the thread, but they have all been useless. You know fk all about what you are writing, so I suggest you keep it to yourself.
You think I'm a sociopath because I won't pay half a heating bill when I'm not in the house 70-80% of the time the heating is on. LOL. You most likely don't even know what the word means.
Some more thoughts for those of you who are saying it's in the contract, it's binding:
This is from the FAQ on Heat Network legislation:
"9.1. The billing arrangements are written into the contract with the tenant and we are unable to change them. Can we continue charging the way we are now?
No, the Regulations (as a statutory instrument) have effect at criminal law. The Regulations must be complied with and contractual (civil) arrangements would not constitute a defence."
After reading more of the guidance, I have a good idea that he is in breach of the regulations. £5,000 max fine for being in breach. Oh dear.
For those saying I should buy meters etc:
"9.4. Can I pass on the charge of installing meters to my tenants?
Where meters must be installed, the heat supplier will be responsible for doing this. The Regulations allow for fixed and variable charges to be passed on to the final customer and any fixed costs for recovery of investment would need to be clear in the billing information (Regulation 9(7)(c))."
Guess you missed this bit from the Legislation then:k all about what you are writing, so I suggest you keep it to yourself.You think I'm a sociopath because I won't pay half a heating bill when I'm not in the house 70-80% of the time the heating is on. LOL. You most likely don't even know what the word means.
Some more thoughts for those of you who are saying it's in the contract, it's binding:
This is from the FAQ on Heat Network legislation:
"9.1. The billing arrangements are written into the contract with the tenant and we are unable to change them. Can we continue charging the way we are now?
No, the Regulations (as a statutory instrument) have effect at criminal law. The Regulations must be complied with and contractual (civil) arrangements would not constitute a defence."
After reading more of the guidance, I have a good idea that he is in breach of the regulations. £5,000 max fine for being in breach. Oh dear.
For those saying I should buy meters etc:
"9.4. Can I pass on the charge of installing meters to my tenants?
Where meters must be installed, the heat supplier will be responsible for doing this. The Regulations allow for fixed and variable charges to be passed on to the final customer and any fixed costs for recovery of investment would need to be clear in the billing information (Regulation 9(7)(c))."
Citation and commencement
This section has no associated Explanatory Memorandum
1.—(1) These Regulations may be cited as the Heat Network (Metering and Billing) Regulations 2014.
(2) Except as provided in paragraphs (3) and (4), these Regulations come into force on 18th December 2014.
(3) Regulation 9 comes into force on 31st December 2014.
(4) Regulations 4(4) and 6 come into force on 31st December 2016.
Regulation 4 (4) is:
(4) Where there is more than one final customer in a building supplied by a district heat network, or by communal heating, the heat supplier must ensure that meters are installed to measure the consumption of heating, cooling or hot water by each final customer.
So as things currently stand the your 'supplier' would appear to not be in breach of the legislation.
PurpleMoonlight said:
Guess you missed this bit from the Legislation then:
Citation and commencement
This section has no associated Explanatory Memorandum
1.—(1) These Regulations may be cited as the Heat Network (Metering and Billing) Regulations 2014.
(2) Except as provided in paragraphs (3) and (4), these Regulations come into force on 18th December 2014.
(3) Regulation 9 comes into force on 31st December 2014.
(4) Regulations 4(4) and 6 come into force on 31st December 2016.
Regulation 4 (4) is:
(4) Where there is more than one final customer in a building supplied by a district heat network, or by communal heating, the heat supplier must ensure that meters are installed to measure the consumption of heating, cooling or hot water by each final customer.
So as things currently stand the your 'supplier' would appear to not be in breach of the legislation.
Last response to you matey boy, you are conveniently ignoring the responsibilities that he did have which had to be complied with by 31 Dec 2015, read all of the legislation. He is in breach, and if you think he isn't you are posting more bullsCitation and commencement
This section has no associated Explanatory Memorandum
1.—(1) These Regulations may be cited as the Heat Network (Metering and Billing) Regulations 2014.
(2) Except as provided in paragraphs (3) and (4), these Regulations come into force on 18th December 2014.
(3) Regulation 9 comes into force on 31st December 2014.
(4) Regulations 4(4) and 6 come into force on 31st December 2016.
Regulation 4 (4) is:
(4) Where there is more than one final customer in a building supplied by a district heat network, or by communal heating, the heat supplier must ensure that meters are installed to measure the consumption of heating, cooling or hot water by each final customer.
So as things currently stand the your 'supplier' would appear to not be in breach of the legislation.
t and don't know what you are talking about. Again. Like I said, thanks for your comment, but it's all been a load of rubbish and completely wrong, so save it for another time. Ok sweetheart?Looks like you are just trying to get a reaction from me on this thread, as are some of the other posters who are posting total and utter bulls
t. I'm happy to hear all opinions and any relevant legislation or other facts, but calling me a sociopath for debating a heating bill and arrangement? Looks like the standard of poster on here really has gone downhill.Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff