Average Speed Cams - are people really this thick?
Discussion
The ones in place at the roadworks near me appear to be working.
"Dorset Police has confirmed the following Notices of Intended Prosecution have been issued for driving offences:
15 October to 17 December: 746
18 December to 4 January: 203 (this is when the road was back to four lanes for Christmas but still had 40mph speed limit)"
When i travel on the road, I have a least 3/4 people overtake me and i set the cruise to 40.
So i would also say yes, people generally are that thick.
"Dorset Police has confirmed the following Notices of Intended Prosecution have been issued for driving offences:
15 October to 17 December: 746
18 December to 4 January: 203 (this is when the road was back to four lanes for Christmas but still had 40mph speed limit)"
When i travel on the road, I have a least 3/4 people overtake me and i set the cruise to 40.
So i would also say yes, people generally are that thick.
Yes, people really are that thick!
I use the M3 between Junctions 2 and 4 at least once a week. Set the cruise for 54 and spend most of the journey slowing down for everyone who brakes when they spot a camera - idiots!
They are typically the same people who have at least one light that is about as bright as them (as in defective)!
And yes any semblance of lane discipline which is pretty poor generally in the UK disappears completely on that stretch.
Still it is all due to finish in about a year, so then they will be able to bunch all the traffic by setting a stupid limit like they do on the M25 every time I join it at J12 southbound! Don't they realise that if they reduce the limit there will be congestion? It seems to be run by people with the same grasp on mathematics as the drivers who cannot comprehend the meaning of the word "average"!
Think I'll go for a lie down.
I use the M3 between Junctions 2 and 4 at least once a week. Set the cruise for 54 and spend most of the journey slowing down for everyone who brakes when they spot a camera - idiots!
They are typically the same people who have at least one light that is about as bright as them (as in defective)!
And yes any semblance of lane discipline which is pretty poor generally in the UK disappears completely on that stretch.
Still it is all due to finish in about a year, so then they will be able to bunch all the traffic by setting a stupid limit like they do on the M25 every time I join it at J12 southbound! Don't they realise that if they reduce the limit there will be congestion? It seems to be run by people with the same grasp on mathematics as the drivers who cannot comprehend the meaning of the word "average"!
Think I'll go for a lie down.
NailedOn said:
The level of innumeracy is frighteningly high.
EG:
I buy two £4.99 items on a market stall and the trader gets a calculator out. Looks stunned when I tell him the answer.
I have a relative who is a very senior civil servant. Cannot use a calculator or a spreadsheet.
Joe Public gets to vote but can't add up.
Some years ago, I bought three sheets of foam rubber at 70p each and three at 80p, this was to wrap some camera in.EG:
I buy two £4.99 items on a market stall and the trader gets a calculator out. Looks stunned when I tell him the answer.
I have a relative who is a very senior civil servant. Cannot use a calculator or a spreadsheet.
Joe Public gets to vote but can't add up.
So I am thinking 3 x 70 = 210, and 3 x 80 = 240, so that's £4.50
The lad behind the counter writes down 70 three times beneath each other and adds it up, then the same with 80 three times, then writes one answer beneath the other and adds that up.............. missed my fekking bus as well.
For the sake of argumentsake and defending some of the people being targeted here, you can kind of beat some average camera set ups. For instance some entrances to the A9 you can go a full 5 miles or so without actually being in a measured zone. My friends father was a part of some subcontractors for one of the companies building a lot of the camera systems (vyzsonics I think), and he swears by numerous methods of ducking the cameras by joining the road at a ton and only slowing down at certain points. Ive watched him doing it on the a9 dual section and supposedly he has yet to recieve a ticket (when I was in the car with him he averaged 83mph on his GPS trip).
Mr Tidy said:
Yes, people really are that thick!
Don't they realise that if they reduce the limit there will be congestion? It seems to be run by people with the same grasp on mathematics as the drivers who cannot comprehend the meaning of the word "average"!
Think I'll go for a lie down.
That is not the case. Lowering the speed limit does reduce congestion as it makes the traffic flow smoother.Don't they realise that if they reduce the limit there will be congestion? It seems to be run by people with the same grasp on mathematics as the drivers who cannot comprehend the meaning of the word "average"!
Think I'll go for a lie down.
The logic of the variable speed mechanism has been assign for ages and is not controversial. I think there are two bits, one simple and one more complex.
At lower speeds you need a smaller inter vehicle gap, so you can pack more cars in. Then the main logic is that complex stuff where the effect of a braker is made much worse with high speeds and high density. That causes all that horrible stop start. I think that is non linear with speed. So reduce speed, higher density without the stop start.
Or something like that.
Bert
At lower speeds you need a smaller inter vehicle gap, so you can pack more cars in. Then the main logic is that complex stuff where the effect of a braker is made much worse with high speeds and high density. That causes all that horrible stop start. I think that is non linear with speed. So reduce speed, higher density without the stop start.
Or something like that.
Bert
BertBert said:
The logic of the variable speed mechanism has been assign for ages and is not controversial. I think there are two bits, one simple and one more complex.
At lower speeds you need a smaller inter vehicle gap, so you can pack more cars in. Then the main logic is that complex stuff where the effect of a braker is made much worse with high speeds and high density. That causes all that horrible stop start. I think that is non linear with speed. So reduce speed, higher density without the stop start.
Or something like that.
Bert
Yep high speed and congested motorways generate the wave effect that goes backwards.At lower speeds you need a smaller inter vehicle gap, so you can pack more cars in. Then the main logic is that complex stuff where the effect of a braker is made much worse with high speeds and high density. That causes all that horrible stop start. I think that is non linear with speed. So reduce speed, higher density without the stop start.
Or something like that.
Bert
ie one person slows suddenly for cat across motorway, one behind brakes, one behind stops, and then sets up the backward wave of stopping and in a short time cars are stopping for no reason miles behind where the problem was and then starting again all for no reason.
BertBert said:
The logic of the variable speed mechanism has been assign for ages and is not controversial. I think there are two bits, one simple and one more complex.
At lower speeds you need a smaller inter vehicle gap, so you can pack more cars in. Then the main logic is that complex stuff where the effect of a braker is made much worse with high speeds and high density. That causes all that horrible stop start. I think that is non linear with speed. So reduce speed, higher density without the stop start.
Or something like that.
Bert
If it's that uncontroversial then surely you should be able to explain it fully, or point to some literature which does.At lower speeds you need a smaller inter vehicle gap, so you can pack more cars in. Then the main logic is that complex stuff where the effect of a braker is made much worse with high speeds and high density. That causes all that horrible stop start. I think that is non linear with speed. So reduce speed, higher density without the stop start.
Or something like that.
Bert
Some of us may be unwilling to accept hand-waving and nebulous "it's complicated" type arguments.
Or something like that.
come down to southend and follow the a127 out towards london. it will scramble your brains.
purely because we get an extra dumb type of driver, we get all the brake when i see a camera ones in the 50mph part.
however inside the part with the cameras the limit goes up to the nsl (70 as it's dc) and some still plod along at 50 in the right hand lane, i've even had some point to the cameras as I go up to 70 - 75 (on my speedo) in a diesel land rover as they think i'm going to get a ticket.
i swear i have seen some of them have their heads explode as i pull away from them
i mentioned this thread to the wife yesterday, she has texted this morning as her year 6 class did averages for early morning maths and couldn't understand how grown ups could not understand how they worked.
she also has an autistic kid in her class who is off to find out how speed cameras work, he knows about the iss, so the scameras should be easy for him.
purely because we get an extra dumb type of driver, we get all the brake when i see a camera ones in the 50mph part.
however inside the part with the cameras the limit goes up to the nsl (70 as it's dc) and some still plod along at 50 in the right hand lane, i've even had some point to the cameras as I go up to 70 - 75 (on my speedo) in a diesel land rover as they think i'm going to get a ticket.
i swear i have seen some of them have their heads explode as i pull away from them
i mentioned this thread to the wife yesterday, she has texted this morning as her year 6 class did averages for early morning maths and couldn't understand how grown ups could not understand how they worked.
she also has an autistic kid in her class who is off to find out how speed cameras work, he knows about the iss, so the scameras should be easy for him.
If you wish to assert a different point of view feel free to. But arguing with mine by saying prove it is puerile.
I guess you've never wondered what causes the stop starts then? Nor bothered with any kind of education?
I guess you've never wondered what causes the stop starts then? Nor bothered with any kind of education?
Pete317 said:
If it's that uncontroversial then surely you should be able to explain it fully, or point to some literature which does.
Some of us may be unwilling to accept hand-waving and nebulous "it's complicated" type arguments.
Or something like that.
Some of us may be unwilling to accept hand-waving and nebulous "it's complicated" type arguments.
Or something like that.
Morning Bert, I seem to remember something along these lines in a documentary about roads, and there was a designer who called it the 'coffee cup syndrome' or something, in that car at the front spills coffe, jams brakes on, and the ripple effect in traffic is that a couple miles behind him, instead of the quick bash in the brakes and resumption of speed, it becomes a traffic jam as the cars brake harder and harder?
daytona355 said:
Morning Bert, I seem to remember something along these lines in a documentary about roads, and there was a designer who called it the 'coffee cup syndrome' or something, in that car at the front spills coffe, jams brakes on, and the ripple effect in traffic is that a couple miles behind him, instead of the quick bash in the brakes and resumption of speed, it becomes a traffic jam as the cars brake harder and harder?
It doesn't need anyone coming to a full stop. Try this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Suugn-p5C1MferrariF50lover said:
Can you explain how that works or are you just the messenger? If you're playing the pigeon, could you point me towards your source? I'd be interested to see the supporting argument.
Just look up Traffic Flow Theory or the more general Queuing Theory. Interesting stuff if you can digest the heavy duty maths involved.marshalla said:
It doesn't need anyone coming to a full stop. Try this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Suugn-p5C1M
That's interesting, its what I meant by the 'backwards' effect. Unfortunately by the time the jam is bad the idiot that caused the initial braking is miles away and the traffic is at a standstill miles back from where he braked. I can see the logic behind it, particularly taking into account the domino effect.
If you have two extremes (assuming the same distance between vehicles);
A line of traffic travelling at 5mph. If the lead vehicle drops by 1mph, the one behind has to do very little to adjust. In turn, the car behind that has to do very little, and so on. The ripple effect is minimal.
A line of traffic travelling at 100mph. If the lead vehicle drops by 20mph, the one behind will likely need to react more heavily. The car behind, more heavily still, and so on. The will be a substantial ripple effect.
The way to counteract the increased speeds is to proportionately increase the distance between the vehicles, which we know doesn't happen (at least sufficiently enough to take into account the increased speeds).
I'm sure there'll be plenty of people along in a minute to point out all the flaws in my logic!
If you have two extremes (assuming the same distance between vehicles);
A line of traffic travelling at 5mph. If the lead vehicle drops by 1mph, the one behind has to do very little to adjust. In turn, the car behind that has to do very little, and so on. The ripple effect is minimal.
A line of traffic travelling at 100mph. If the lead vehicle drops by 20mph, the one behind will likely need to react more heavily. The car behind, more heavily still, and so on. The will be a substantial ripple effect.
The way to counteract the increased speeds is to proportionately increase the distance between the vehicles, which we know doesn't happen (at least sufficiently enough to take into account the increased speeds).
I'm sure there'll be plenty of people along in a minute to point out all the flaws in my logic!
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