Police - excessive force on this week's news
Discussion
Trax said:
singlecoil said:
Passive yes, but the non-compliance is very active. He's under arrest and he's resisting, passively agreed, but it's still resisting arrest.
It's evident that some people have formed a view on this, and having done so, are getting quite cross with anyone who doesn't share their view, and that's where all this 'defending the indefensible' and 'closing ranks' stuff is coming from.
I would hope that if they would agree that we don't know what happened before the video starts, and that whatever did happen has a bearing on the part that we can see, that their view on the rights and wrongs of it all might be more open
Obviously we don't know what happened before the video started, but it started with him asking why he should get on the floor. Is it safe to assume he wasn't under arrest then?It's evident that some people have formed a view on this, and having done so, are getting quite cross with anyone who doesn't share their view, and that's where all this 'defending the indefensible' and 'closing ranks' stuff is coming from.
I would hope that if they would agree that we don't know what happened before the video starts, and that whatever did happen has a bearing on the part that we can see, that their view on the rights and wrongs of it all might be more open
If it is, I cannot understand why he was arrested in 2 counts of ABH? If he actually bodily harmed 2 offices, I would have thought he would not be asked to get on the ground, also why he wouldn't be saying why, I have committed no crime.
Did he assault 2 offices after the video ended? At no time do I hear why he is being arrested, though it is hard to hear. All I see is him being assaulted by just one officer, who seems to want to ta,e this guy down, with no explanation, just because I say.
Is it standard firm to report for ABH as a standard because he was hit by the officer? If no ABH took place, is that not PCoJ? It either happened or not, Carnt be made up to teach someone a lesson.
With power comes great responsibility and all that....
As for whether he should have received an explanation as to why he was being told to get on the floor- we already know he was non-compliant so I expect they didn't see any point in arguing the toss with him. If he was open to reason then it's very unlikely that it would have got that far.
singlecoil said:
Well, that's one view and although you acknowledge not knowing what went on before or after the video, I presume you are basing it on what you actually saw.
As for whether he should have received an explanation as to why he was being told to get on the floor- we already know he was non-compliant so I expect they didn't see any point in arguing the toss with him. If he was open to reason then it's very unlikely that it would have got that far.
We can only really firm a view with what we can see, not guess what may have happened to justify what we see what did happen. From re-watching, good cop seems to be holding his arm, which victim appears to shug off. My question was, is he under arrest at this point? Can anyone here form an opinion on that, as I don't know procedures. Or was he just being talked too, only experienced officers can probably give me an opinion on that. I can only assume, if he was under arrest at that point, good cop wouldn't have let bad cop embarrass himself.As for whether he should have received an explanation as to why he was being told to get on the floor- we already know he was non-compliant so I expect they didn't see any point in arguing the toss with him. If he was open to reason then it's very unlikely that it would have got that far.
I only have TV shows to go on, but when a decision of arrest is made, the police there make the arrest, I have never seen a cop get shouty to some complying like this, and then get attacked.
I only hear the mention of arrest when more offices arrive, before he gets moved away to the side, was he then under arrest?
I'm no police hater, well, no more than the law abiding person who drives a car, so no axe to grind, but the video does not make me comfortable. I would expect the good cop to either help bad cop, (assuming he agrees with his action), or make an effort to help the situation, I.e. Break the one way fight up. Any officer which stands by and watches an officer do something wrong, is just as wrong.
Can anyone say why charges of ABH could have been made? He doesn't appear to resist, or hit anyone, is this just a standard made up charge, along with resisting arrest?
Trax said:
We can only really firm a view with what we can see, not guess what may have happened to justify what we see what did happen. From re-watching, good cop seems to be holding his arm, which victim appears to shug off. My question was, is he under arrest at this point? Can anyone here form an opinion on that, as I don't know procedures. Or was he just being talked too, only experienced officers can probably give me an opinion on that. I can only assume, if he was under arrest at that point, good cop wouldn't have let bad cop embarrass himself.
La Liga has already provided some info on police procedures. I realise you only want to form a view on what you can see, but wouldn't it be better not to form a view at all when you don't have the full story?
Trax said:
I only have TV shows to go on, but when a decision of arrest is made, the police there make the arrest, I have never seen a cop get shouty to some complying like this, and then get attacked.
He's NOT complying!Trax said:
He doesn't appear to resist, or hit anyone, is this just a standard made up charge, along with resisting arrest?
Like you have said more than once, we DON'T have the full story, the charge if there has been one will relate to something before the video started. As for "standard made up charge" you are showing a prejudice there.And he was resisting arrest, you can see that for yourself.
singlecoil said:
Trax said:
We can only really firm a view with what we can see, not guess what may have happened to justify what we see what did happen. From re-watching, good cop seems to be holding his arm, which victim appears to shug off. My question was, is he under arrest at this point? Can anyone here form an opinion on that, as I don't know procedures. Or was he just being talked too, only experienced officers can probably give me an opinion on that. I can only assume, if he was under arrest at that point, good cop wouldn't have let bad cop embarrass himself.
La Liga has already provided some info on police procedures. I realise you only want to form a view on what you can see, but wouldn't it be better not to form a view at all when you don't have the full story?
Trax said:
I only have TV shows to go on, but when a decision of arrest is made, the police there make the arrest, I have never seen a cop get shouty to some complying like this, and then get attacked.
He's NOT complying!Trax said:
He doesn't appear to resist, or hit anyone, is this just a standard made up charge, along with resisting arrest?
Like you have said more than once, we DON'T have the full story, the charge if there has been one will relate to something before the video started. As for "standard made up charge" you are showing a prejudice there.And he was resisting arrest, you can see that for yourself.
singlecoil said:
Trax said:
We can only really firm a view with what we can see, not guess what may have happened to justify what we see what did happen. From re-watching, good cop seems to be holding his arm, which victim appears to shug off. My question was, is he under arrest at this point? Can anyone here form an opinion on that, as I don't know procedures. Or was he just being talked too, only experienced officers can probably give me an opinion on that. I can only assume, if he was under arrest at that point, good cop wouldn't have let bad cop embarrass himself.
La Liga has already provided some info on police procedures. I realise you only want to form a view on what you can see, but wouldn't it be better not to form a view at all when you don't have the full story?
Trax said:
I only have TV shows to go on, but when a decision of arrest is made, the police there make the arrest, I have never seen a cop get shouty to some complying like this, and then get attacked.
He's NOT complying!Trax said:
He doesn't appear to resist, or hit anyone, is this just a standard made up charge, along with resisting arrest?
Like you have said more than once, we DON'T have the full story, the charge if there has been one will relate to something before the video started. As for "standard made up charge" you are showing a prejudice there.And he was resisting arrest, you can see that for yourself.
I am still not happy with the ABH charge though, as it didn't happen in the video, and if it was before, as you suggest, then good cop is pretty crap, as he didn't help with the arrest of someone who has just caused him actuall bodily harm,I.e. assaulted him in a serious way. I dont mean to come across as prejudiced, I was asking, if not suggesting, that if, as in this case, we only see bad cop inflicting ABH on the victim during his botched arrest, then is it a standard charge to counter, and justify the force used. (Again he didn't cause ABH in the video, and judging on good cops action, I dont believe it happened before)
Hopefully the whole event is caught on CTV, so the truth come out either way.
Boosted LS1 said:
Bigends said:
His bail date was last Sunday -no news if hes been charged yet.
He's bound to be charged with something to justify the arrest. Anything less would almost be an admission of an unlawful arrest lol.don4l said:
The way that I am reading La Liga is that he is certain that there is a rational explanation for the officer's actions.
I have simply said I can see a route to it being legally justified. Without having an account from the officers or knowing all the unknowns, it's not possible to draw a definitive conclusion. I haven't said it's certain, merely tried to give some insight into how the law and procedures work and the scope they offer. I've also been keen to stress the matter isn't binary in nature, to little success, it appears. The best 'counter-argument' to these points is, "Well, I think he's wrong because I do". Or in Winston's case, Strawman arguments like, 'You think the police are beyond reproach' etc.
WinstonWolf said:
Are you completely incapable of dealing with a single paragraph in one go?
Perhaps this is your problem, the police have been trained to deal with a single instruction at once.
Something irrelevant about paragraphs (a highly common way in which people use forums) was easier than answering the questions I see. Perhaps this is your problem, the police have been trained to deal with a single instruction at once.
Boosted LS1 said:
Bigends said:
He can have a fixed penalty ticket for the fare evasion-the rest will depend on the assault allegations being pursued
They won't stop at a fare evasion, the stakes are much higher.La Liga said:
eah, what they'll do is charge him for the 2 x ABHs (they'll also need to get the CPS to conspire since only they can authorise such a charge). That'd be a really sensible given the IPCC involvement. It'll also look much better when it's discontinued at court... Perhaps the Chief of the BTP will hold the family of the prosecutor hostage to continue the prosecution, too.
Something like that happened to me many years ago. Once the charges were made in the cell block the ball kept on rolling. I won the complaints against the police on 4 counts (assault, unlawful arrest/detention and something else) and it even went to 4 ct hearings before I was aquitted. I couldn't prove malicious prosecution though. It wasted 3-4 years of my life and all because I was trying to break up a fight and didn't like the idea of being arrested without being able to explain my version of events.Boosted LS1 said:
La Liga said:
eah, what they'll do is charge him for the 2 x ABHs (they'll also need to get the CPS to conspire since only they can authorise such a charge). That'd be a really sensible given the IPCC involvement. It'll also look much better when it's discontinued at court... Perhaps the Chief of the BTP will hold the family of the prosecutor hostage to continue the prosecution, too.
Something like that happened to me many years ago. Once the charges were made in the cell block the ball kept on rolling. I won the complaints against the police on 4 counts (assault, unlawful arrest/detention and something else) and it even went to 4 ct hearings before I was aquitted. I couldn't prove malicious prosecution though. It wasted 3-4 years of my life and all because I was trying to break up a fight and didn't like the idea of being arrested without being able to explain my version of events.
k about anyone, especially the train staff.
Boosted LS1 said:
Something like that happened to me many years ago. Once the charges were made in the cell block the ball kept on rolling. I won the complaints against the police on 4 counts (assault, unlawful arrest/detention and something else) and it even went to 4 ct hearings before I was aquitted. I couldn't prove malicious prosecution though. It wasted 3-4 years of my life and all because I was trying to break up a fight and didn't like the idea of being arrested without being able to explain my version of events.
Which has no relevance whatsoever to the improbability of the BTP making-up some duff charges alongside having to conspire with the CPS. creampuff said:
My outrage meter has failed to rise above zero in this one.
There is no lead up in the video to the incident, so we do not know what went on beforehand.
What could have happened before hand that would justify the thuggish behaviour we have seen?There is no lead up in the video to the incident, so we do not know what went on beforehand.
surely, if the man was a threat he should have been put on the floor as others have pointed out. Nothing justifies the assault we see, not even the police handbook.
NoNeed said:
What could have happened before hand that would justify the thuggish behaviour we have seen?
Your question presupposes that the behaviour was thuggish. I gather you believe it was but others may not agree.
NoNeed said:
surely, if the man was a threat he should have been put on the floor as others have pointed out. Nothing justifies the assault we see, not even the police handbook.
I haven't read the police handbook, but I have it on good authority that it was justified because he was actively resisting arrest and it wasn't therefore an assault.NoNeed said:
What could have happened before hand that would justify the thuggish behaviour we have seen?
surely, if the man was a threat he should have been put on the floor as others have pointed out. Nothing justifies the assault we see, not even the police handbook.
Read it have you?surely, if the man was a threat he should have been put on the floor as others have pointed out. Nothing justifies the assault we see, not even the police handbook.
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