Police - excessive force on this week's news

[NoNeed]

Greendubber said:

Read it have you?

the parts posted I have.



Besides it would not say you are allowed to commit assault anyway wouod it?

[NoNeed]

singlecoil said:

I haven't read the police handbook, but I have it on good authority that it was justified because he was actively resisting arrest and it wasn't therefore an assault.

Beating somebody with a baton because they wont do as they are tild is assault, that's why we no longer practice victoriàn parenting methods.

[singlecoil]

NoNeed said:

singlecoil said:

I haven't read the police handbook, but I have it on good authority that it was justified because he was actively resisting arrest and it wasn't therefore an assault.

Beating somebody with a baton because they wont do as they are tild is assault, that's why we no longer practice victoriàn parenting methods.

No, it isn't. WTF do you think the police are issued with batons for? It wouldn't make sense for them to have them otherwise. What did you think they were for? Tapping wheels?

[Greendubber]

NoNeed said:

Beating somebody with a baton because they wont do as they are tild is assault, that's why we no longer practice victoriàn parenting methods.

Wrong.

[anonymous-user]

NoNeed said:

creampuff said:

My outrage meter has failed to rise above zero in this one.

There is no lead up in the video to the incident, so we do not know what went on beforehand.

What could have happened before hand that would justify the thuggish behaviour we have seen?


surely, if the man was a threat he should have been put on the floor as others have pointed out. Nothing justifies the assault we see, not even the police handbook.

You don't know what you're talking about.

NoNeed said:

Beating somebody with a baton because they wont do as they are tild is assault, that's why we no longer practice victoriàn parenting methods.

See above.

[Moominator]

La Liga you have arguing staying power

[singlecoil]

Moominator said:

La Liga you have arguing staying power

Good thing too.

Otherwise those that have a negative attitude to the police would have it all their own way, and none of us would want that, I hope.

[Bigends]

Greendubber said:

NoNeed said:

Beating somebody with a baton because they wont do as they are tild is assault, that's why we no longer practice victoriàn parenting methods.

Wrong.

JUSTIFIED beating with a baton is ok if the officer can justify his actions to the IPPC then there wont be any problems. - couldnt see much justification for whacking the bloke on this occasion. Why not try some other strikes first? There was no need to have escalated things to this level from what the video shows. Went to dozens of similar jobs-didnt even consider getting my baton out, though I did work with a lot of baton/spray happy officers

Edited by Bigends on Saturday 19th March 18:32

[singlecoil]

Bigends said:

Greendubber said:

NoNeed said:

Beating somebody with a baton because they wont do as they are tild is assault, that's why we no longer practice victoriàn parenting methods.

Wrong.

JUSTIFIED beating with a baton is ok - couldnt see much justification for whacking the bloke on this occasion. Why not try some knee strikes first? There was no need to have escalated things to this level from what the video shows. Went to dozens of similar jobs-didnt even consider getting my baton out, though I did work with a lot of baton/spray happy officers

Policemen vary in their skills and aptitude, just as the rest of us do in our jobs.

[Bigends]

singlecoil said:

Bigends said:

Greendubber said:

NoNeed said:

Beating somebody with a baton because they wont do as they are tild is assault, that's why we no longer practice victoriàn parenting methods.

Wrong.

JUSTIFIED beating with a baton is ok - couldnt see much justification for whacking the bloke on this occasion. Why not try some knee strikes first? There was no need to have escalated things to this level from what the video shows. Went to dozens of similar jobs-didnt even consider getting my baton out, though I did work with a lot of baton/spray happy officers

Policemen vary in their skills and aptitude, just as the rest of us do in our jobs.

Dealing with people - not products here -have to get things right more often than not -or face the consequences-all part of the job

[Greendubber]

singlecoil said:

Good thing too.

Otherwise those that have a negative attitude to the police would have it all their own way, and none of us would want that, I hope.

And no one would correct the utter bks that people spout on here.

[Greendubber]

Bigends said:

JUSTIFIED beating with a baton is ok if the officer can justify his actions to the IPPC then there wont be any problems. - couldnt see much justification for whacking the bloke on this occasion. Why not try some other strikes first? There was no need to have escalated things to this level from what the video shows. Went to dozens of similar jobs-didnt even consider getting my baton out, though I did work with a lot of baton/spray happy officers

Edited by Bigends on Saturday 19th March 18:32

Usual 'in my day' post from you then.

You know little about why he was arrested or what the sutuation was prior to filming starting so cant comment on it being justified or not can you?

I do hope you had a more open mind when you were out and about. Different officers have differebt ways off dealing with people, some prefer baton, some prefer restraints or take downs. Its not for you to say the officer with the baton was wrong or right based on what we can see.

[Bigends]

Greendubber said:

Bigends said:

JUSTIFIED beating with a baton is ok if the officer can justify his actions to the IPPC then there wont be any problems. - couldnt see much justification for whacking the bloke on this occasion. Why not try some other strikes first? There was no need to have escalated things to this level from what the video shows. Went to dozens of similar jobs-didnt even consider getting my baton out, though I did work with a lot of baton/spray happy officers

Edited by Bigends on Saturday 19th March 18:32

Usual 'in my day' post from you then.

You know little about why he was arrested or what the sutuation was prior to filming starting so cant comment on it being justified or not can you?

I do hope you had a more open mind when you were out and about. Different officers have differebt ways off dealing with people, some prefer baton, some prefer restraints or take downs. Its not for you to say the officer with the baton was wrong or right based on what we can see.

Here we go with the 'you dont know what its like anymore stuff
Justification for the use if force hasnt changed since 'my day' - was and is a last resort - I was trained ( and trained) on all of the current kit you have now (PR24, ASP,Extendable baton, CS and PAVA plus unarmed) - use is all a matter of experience and attitude - not following a flowchart. Stopped a few getting themselves in the sh*t by intervening when things started going the way this job didthe same as his mates should have done. Doenst matter what happened before the video - he wasnt acting badly enough to get whacked like that - still we'll see what the investigation unearths. THE YOUNG COP was probably doing his best here - but stop defending his actions as correct. When I was still in the job i'd have probably done the same - however - it could now be me on the other end of that non payment dispute with the station staff, and should I wish to have a row argue the toss with them - I wouldnt expect this treatment.

Edited by Bigends on Saturday 19th March 19:30

[Greendubber]

Bigends said:

Here we go with the 'you dont know what its like anymore stuff
Justification for the use if force hasnt changed since 'my day' - was and is a last resort - I was trained ( and trained) on all of the current kit you have now (PR24, ASP,Extendable baton, CS and PAVA plus unarmed) - use is all a matter of experience and attitude - not following a flowchart. Stopped a few getting themselves in the sh*t by intervening when things started going the way this job didthe same as his mates should have done. Doenst matter what happened before the video - he wasnt acting badly enough to get whacked like that - still we'll see what the investigation unearths. THE YOUNG COP was probably doing his best here - but stop defending his actions as correct

Good for you. So as a last resort why is he striking an initial target area and not the 'last resort' final target area? He's striking his upper leg after all not his head.



I've not said he is or he isnt correct, just that officers have different ways of dealing with someone. I could taser someone you might CS, does that make the deployment wrong? No of course it doesnt.

Its down to him to justify it not me and I'm not willing to make a decision on a video showing the end of an incident rather than the whole thing. Someone with your alleged experience should know better than to assume he cant justify it. His age also has nothing to do with it.

[anonymous-user]

Whether you like 'flow charts' or not, the training structures I have previously posted are what one talks about during PSD and IPCC interviews.

A baton to a large muscle group has a similar probability of injury and type of injury as a leg strike or some sort.

How much justification do you require where the most likely outcome is a some bruising and soreness? Little when at an active resistance level and when presence, verbal and primary have been unsuccessful.

[Bigends]

Greendubber said:

Bigends said:

Here we go with the 'you dont know what its like anymore stuff
Justification for the use if force hasnt changed since 'my day' - was and is a last resort - I was trained ( and trained) on all of the current kit you have now (PR24, ASP,Extendable baton, CS and PAVA plus unarmed) - use is all a matter of experience and attitude - not following a flowchart. Stopped a few getting themselves in the sh*t by intervening when things started going the way this job didthe same as his mates should have done. Doenst matter what happened before the video - he wasnt acting badly enough to get whacked like that - still we'll see what the investigation unearths. THE YOUNG COP was probably doing his best here - but stop defending his actions as correct

Good for you. So as a last resort why is he striking an initial target area and not the 'last resort' final target area? He's striking his upper leg after all not his head.



I've not said he is or he isnt correct, just that officers have different ways of dealing with someone. I could taser someone you might CS, does that make the deployment wrong? No of course it doesnt.

Its down to him to justify it not me and I'm not willing to make a decision on a video showing the end of an incident rather than the whole thing. Someone with your alleged experience should know better than to assume he cant justify it. His age also has nothing to do with it.

Capitals were my mistake - not saying he cant justify it - but i'd like to see how he explains himself - ive said before - the others should have seen thing were getting out of hand and helped him out

[Greendubber]

La Liga said:

Whether you like 'flow charts' or not, the training structures I have previously posted are what one talks about during PSD and IPCC interviews.

A baton to a large muscle group has a similar probability of injury and type of injury as a leg strike or some sort.

How much justification do you require where the most likely outcome is a some bruising and soreness? Little when at an active resistance level and when presence, verbal and primary have been unsuccessful.

Quite.

We've seen this 9 o'clock jury before though.

[Greendubber]

Bigends said:

apitals were my mistake - not saying he cant justify it - but i'd like to see how he explains himself - ive said before - the others should have seen thing were getting out of hand and helped him out

I was wondering why they didnt help however (and Im not taking the piss) but these days put a few bobbies onto a non compliant person and you have comments like '6 on 1 police bullies'

Maybe society are finally wearing bobbies down to the "I'm not getting involved" stage. I had a conversation with my gaffer a few weeks ago about how groups of camera pointing armchair experts have changed officers approach to situationd and its not for the better.

We all know the more helping the safer it is but people would be moaning about that and saying why didnt the bobby just deal with him.

F&cked either way I'd say.

[mph1977]

Greendubber said:

I was wondering why they didnt help however (and Im not taking the piss) but these days put a few bobbies onto a non compliant person and you have comments like '6 on 1 police bullies'

Maybe society are finally wearing bobbies down to the "I'm not getting involved" stage. I had a conversation with my gaffer a few weeks ago about how groups of camera pointing armchair experts have changed officers approach to situationd and its not for the better.

We all know the more helping the safer it is but people would be moaning about that and saying why didnt the bobby just deal with him.

F&cked either way I'd say.

yep seems about right

despite the fact going intoa restraint mob handed is the safest approach - in the health care settings where restraint is used , they simply don;t go in unless they are mob handed, however using batons and spray on psych patients is deprecated, even if the middle and high secure units do have shield teams etc .

[WinstonWolf]

Bigends said:

Greendubber said:

Bigends said:

JUSTIFIED beating with a baton is ok if the officer can justify his actions to the IPPC then there wont be any problems. - couldnt see much justification for whacking the bloke on this occasion. Why not try some other strikes first? There was no need to have escalated things to this level from what the video shows. Went to dozens of similar jobs-didnt even consider getting my baton out, though I did work with a lot of baton/spray happy officers

Edited by Bigends on Saturday 19th March 18:32

Usual 'in my day' post from you then.

You know little about why he was arrested or what the sutuation was prior to filming starting so cant comment on it being justified or not can you?

I do hope you had a more open mind when you were out and about. Different officers have differebt ways off dealing with people, some prefer baton, some prefer restraints or take downs. Its not for you to say the officer with the baton was wrong or right based on what we can see.

Here we go with the 'you dont know what its like anymore stuff
Justification for the use if force hasnt changed since 'my day' - was and is a last resort - I was trained ( and trained) on all of the current kit you have now (PR24, ASP,Extendable baton, CS and PAVA plus unarmed) - use is all a matter of experience and attitude - not following a flowchart. Stopped a few getting themselves in the sh*t by intervening when things started going the way this job didthe same as his mates should have done. Doenst matter what happened before the video - he wasnt acting badly enough to get whacked like that - still we'll see what the investigation unearths. THE YOUNG COP was probably doing his best here - but stop defending his actions as correct. When I was still in the job i'd have probably done the same - however - it could now be me on the other end of that non payment dispute with the station staff, and should I wish to have a row argue the toss with them - I wouldnt expect this treatment.

Edited by Bigends on Saturday 19th March 19:30

Some officers seem to get it, others don't