458 Spider - 650S Spider ?

[shabster]

Hi folks

I am contemplating a move from a 2013 458 Spider to a new-ish 650S - have an allocation for a 488 Spider early 2017, but with some good deals to be had on 650S am thinking about as an alternative.

I've seen a few in the flesh recently at car meets and really growing on me, love the doors, the carbon tub and the F1 heritage. I'm test driving at McLaren Ascot in a couple weeks.

I wanted to ask if any folks on here have made the same jump, how have you found it ? Any second thoughts having made the switch ? Do you miss the sound of the NA or anything else about the 458 ?

I also wanted to ask how you've found people's reactions when you are driving around. In the (rosso corsa) 458 Spider I get a mix of feedback - some who love the car but also a fair amount of negative, which annoys me sometimes. Most of the time doesnt bother me, shouldn't care - but when you get the nasty comments and the two fingers occasionally just annoying, especially when my 8 year old son is with me etc. Do you find any different in the 650S, is it it just the norm in a supercar...

Thanks for any feedback,

Cheers Matt

[Wilmslowboy]

Hi

I have a late 63 plate 12c spider but before I bought it I seriously considered a 458 spider....but like for like (miles and year) I would have to have found an additional £25k.

A late 12c is basically the same car as a 650s, without the addition of some upgrades and a new front end, I also considered a 650s spider but at the time the cost difference for a 1 year newer 650s spider to a 12c spider was £40k.

Noise - mine has a sports exhaust and sounds absolutely epic, pops, bangs and roars, it also has some element of a high pitched scream (12c revs to over 8k) but it is not that unique primeval wail of a Ferrari (although I would also say that a 458 falls a little short in this department as well compared to some previous generation V8 Ferraris).

Response from people - almost universally positive - it's a british car, little or no association with "loads of money" and it has cool doors. People want to know what it is and generally talk about it/ have their photo taken with it, touch wood to date I've had zero negative reactions.


I'm made up with my car....and on balance would say it's better car than a 458....however personally there is something to Ferraris that goes beyond the metal, leather and plastic....and the McLaren doesn't quite have that (yet).

[shabster]

"Response from people - almost universally positive - it's a british car, little or no association with "loads of money" and it has cool doors. People want to know what it is and generally talk about it/ have their photo taken with it, touch wood to date I've had zero negative reactions."

This is good feedback - I didn't buy the 458 Spider to show off as the main reason, and definitely not a garage queen as I like to do a good skutch on country roads (de-stress after a busy week!) to work the engine and make me giggle, so what you describe sounds much better as a Petrolhead than being lumped with the "loads of money" "show off" perception that some folks have about a red Ferrari, much as I adore the drive in the 458.

A decision that needs lots of thought as I've been a die hard Ferrari fan for years and bought the 458 spider as my dream car after having a California for a while. Looking forward to the test drive !

cheers
Matt

Edited by shabster on Saturday 19th March 08:28

Edited by shabster on Saturday 19th March 08:29

[100 IAN]

I've had my late '13 12C Spider for a couple of months now and use it as an everyday-ish car, having clocked up 2k miles so far.

I've only every had positive comments and still haven't got used to being let out into traffic so frequently.

Mine is Graphite Grey colour so maybe not 'look at me' like so many super cars, are which may or may not help(?)

Suspension is way more suited to British rough roads making it so much more usable as an everyday car - try one for yourself and see what you think.

[shabster]

Your 12C is nice Ian - part of me thinking about McLaren is seeing so many in the flesh at the Goodwood run / breakfast meet the other day... Really growing on me !

[Dblue]

My experience of Ferrari ownership is not quite as negative as yours but I have been really quite surprised by how much more positive the reaction to the Lamborghini has been than to my Ferrari

My McLaren experience begins monday but I'd be amazed if I get any hate tbh, just doesn't have the negative associations that come with Ferrari.

[shabster]

Probably doesn't help that my 458 is Rosso Corsa - great for resale values but I never got the negative attention in my Black California. I guess you can't know these things till you try them. It's a nice problem to have at the end of the day !

[SL550M]

shabster said:

Probably doesn't help that my 458 is Rosso Corsa - great for resale values but I never got the negative attention in my Black California. I guess you can't know these things till you try them. It's a nice problem to have at the end of the day !

Interestingly I think colour is quite relevant on this issue. There are always going to be idiots out there; I once had some outrageous unsolicited abuse while driving my Grigio 550 Maranello. But it was only one incident in four years and 20,000 miles. I've now got a black 599 and had nothing but positive comments and the occasional thumbs-up from pedestrians. I'm sure other digits will be directed my way at some point but ultimately we shouldn't let the nasty minority influence our buying decisions.

[Skittles001]

shabster said:

Hi folks

I am contemplating a move from a 2013 458 Spider to a new-ish 650S - have an allocation for a 488 Spider early 2017, but with some good deals to be had on 650S am thinking about as an alternative.

I've seen a few in the flesh recently at car meets and really growing on me, love the doors, the carbon tub and the F1 heritage. I'm test driving at McLaren Ascot in a couple weeks.

I wanted to ask if any folks on here have made the same jump, how have you found it ? Any second thoughts having made the switch ? Do you miss the sound of the NA or anything else about the 458 ?

I also wanted to ask how you've found people's reactions when you are driving around. In the (rosso corsa) 458 Spider I get a mix of feedback - some who love the car but also a fair amount of negative, which annoys me sometimes. Most of the time doesnt bother me, shouldn't care - but when you get the nasty comments and the two fingers occasionally just annoying, especially when my 8 year old son is with me etc. Do you find any different in the 650S, is it it just the norm in a supercar...

Thanks for any feedback,

Cheers Matt

Matt, I moved from a 458 Italia to a 650S Spider a few weeks ago. I thought very carefully about the change for fairly similar reasons to you and had quite a bit of apprehension before I drove the 650S. I eventually went to drive the car expecting to cross it off the list of alternatives. However, after I drove it I placed a deposit on the car straight away.

1. Noise. The 458 sounds glorious, as you'd expect from a high revving n/a Ferrari. I expected the 650S to be very difficient in this regard but was pleasantly surprised. It is loud, not as loud as a 458. The sound is more complex as you hear more of the engine than the exhaust. It is more about burbles on the overrun, pops, clicks and amazing whooshes of intake sound. There are nice pops on upshifts in Sport/Track mode too. It is a flat plane crank v8 revving to 8.5k so obviously sounds good anyhow. In short, the sound won't be as loud or wail like a 458 but it is extremely good in a very different way. Make sure you get the sports exhaust.

2. Thoughts on the switch: Absolutely no regrets (which surprised me). The 650S is something one understands and appreciates increasingly over time, it has many different layers etc that you understand more every time you drive it (OK I'm about a month and a thousand miles into ownership) but I keep "getting" the car more. It's my first McLaren and I now know, with 100% certainty, it won't be my last. This seems to be a position echoed my many other owners. E.g. My car's two previous owners, both bought McLarens (one a 675 and the other awaiting a 675 Spider).

3. In terms of engineering: it is a different league to the 458. The carbon tub isn't just a marketing exercise - the spider really is as stiff as the coupe. Having also owned a few convertibles in the past, scuttle shake was the main reason I went for the 458 as an Italia not the Spider (despite it being minimal). The interior is really nice on the 650S and IRIS 2 is brilliant but the lack of glove box irritates me :-). PS it handles beautifully and the acceleration is mind blowing but that's well documented.

4. Attention/Looks: I think the 458 (especially in Italia form) is one of the best looking cars ever launched so the bar is very high. The 650S isn't as beautiful in the same way as the 458 but it is a very good looking car indee; it has far more impact/ipresence and is more dramatic looking than the 458. Interestingly the 650 doesn't photograph well for some reason, it looks far better in the metal. The 458 looks good in both situations.

What surprised me was how much attention the McLaren gets: I'm not a big fan of attention so, like my 458, went for a grey colour (having previously had a Rosso Spider (360) and a GT3RS with bright red wheels!). It is a very elegant/beautiful colour but not a shouty one. So I was surprised at how much attention the car gets: thumbs up from drivers/bikers, people taking pictures, people asking lots of questions at petrol stations etc. This makes me rather uncomfortable at times as I'd prefer to be under the radar so this will take some getting used to. It gets far, far more attention than the 458 (or any car I have owned) which also surprised me. One very important thing to note: ALL the attention is positive. McLaren isn't associated with flash gits showing off. A Ferrari unfortunately does have this perception amongst some idiots, mainly because it is such a well known brand Given how heavily it is marketed.

PS all of this is without opening the doors. It appears no one can help coming over with a grin to examine dihedral doors once open! :-)

Sorry for the very long post. In short, I've been far more delighted with the switch than expected. I love the 458, it is one of the best Ferraris made, but the 650S is an outstanding car and more than a match for the mighty 458. I haven't driven a 488 yet...

Edited by Skittles001 on Saturday 19th March 10:34

Edited by Skittles001 on Saturday 19th March 15:01

[shabster]

Great post ! Good to hear the perspective from someone with the same choice I am trying to make.

Thanks for the detailed info.

Your 650S looking stunning

[Sarnie]

There is a guy on here and on the McLaren FB group who went from 458 to 650s Spider and he is over the moon with it...

I've not had a single negative comment or incident in mine, only slack jaws and lots of photo's and waving etc! The doors attract a lot of attention, especially at petrol garages where everyone is looking at you getting in and out.........

[RamboLambo]

Steve Sutcliffe - "The 650S chews up and spits out a 458".

Debated buying a 458 spider at the time and as a 1,000 mile high spec ex demo in December 2014 was offered a cracking deal. Absolutely loved the 458, the noise and everything that goes with the prancing horse association but once I drove the 650S it was a no brainer even though I paid more for a new one

I have always loved my Ferrari's but the McLaren offered something different for a change. The mystique, the exclusivity, those doors, single wiper blade etc....all adds to the supercar sensation

Every person who has come up to me to speak about the car has undoubtedly said they would have it over a Ferrari 458 any day and obviously that's just based on looks and presence rather than performance.

I think 12C and 458 were comparable but the 650s is in a different league and will obviously be compared to 488 now.
If you consider the prices of a 488 spider if you could get an early one at full list and a 650s spider now its a massive prancing horse premium >£50k 20% for starters.

Get the 650s spider and you will be amazed how much better it is than a 458 in every department bar maybe the sound which is still very good but not in the F1 scream way

[mikey k]

Skittles pretty much nailed it
All I can add is the scuttle shake on the 458 spider put me off

[cho]

I would probably go for the 488 spider if the allocation is available then see what comes from Mclaren as a replacement for the 650 around the same time. You'll probably be able to flip the 488 for a profit and jump into whatever new toy Mclaren have at a possible discount.

Just been trundling around in a California for the last few days and really hate it! Not trying to be controversial and I know they are different in leagues(maybe not price wise though)but the fezza doesn't feel special and really does creek every time it goes over a bump. Nice GT car as steering is very light for town driving and reasonably comfortable for distance driving but again all over the place when pushing on. Also, attracts attention everywhere I go most likely because it's recognised as a Ferrari but nothing negative so far. Similar for the 650 where attention has always been positive and people like to ask about it. I try to promote the positive image of Mclaren owners by letting some sit in it on occasion

[p-car]

RamboLambo said:

I think 12C and 458 were comparable but the 650s is in a different league and will obviously be compared to 488 now.

As a 12C owner who's tried a 650S I don't quite agree chap. Without getting into the minutia, the 650S is a relatively minor development of the 12C, the revised front end styling (and front end bite it gives) being the main difference. A full factory upgraded 12C is very close to a 650S, both are ridiculously fast and both will easily out gun a 458

Sticking specifically to the Spider versions both 12c and 650S are far superior to the 458 Spider due to the carbon chassis and lack of flex compared to the Ferrari.

[RamboLambo]

p-car said:

As a 12C owner who's tried a 650S I don't quite agree chap. Without getting into the minutia, the 650S is a relatively minor development of the 12C, the revised front end styling (and front end bite it gives) being the main difference. A full factory upgraded 12C is very close to a 650S, both are ridiculously fast and both will easily out gun a 458

Sticking specifically to the Spider versions both 12c and 650S are far superior to the 458 Spider due to the carbon chassis and lack of flex compared to the Ferrari.

The upgraded 12C does not get the credit it deserves and sadly a lot of damage was done with the rushed IMHO launch of the MP4 12C and very few subsequent reviews of the vastly improved upgraded car.

With the 650S there was another 25% new parts over the upgraded 12C but everything was improved learning from the 12C. A lot of small tweaks amassed to a greater than 25% improvement IMHO almost to the extent of a 430 Scuderia versus a standard F430. Suddenly the car had a lot more soul, driver feel and excitement.
Personally I think the defining difference between the 650S and 12C is the increase in torque of 70Nm and how its spread across the rev band.
There are already Youtube clips showing a 12C outdrag a 488 so a 650S will murder it and Ferrari are still playing catch up despite being a newer model

Totally agree about the carbon tub and I would never buy a spider without this now having been spoiled with the McLaren. It would be such an annoying backward step to go into anything else

[p-car]

RamboLambo said:

With the 650S there was another 25% new parts over the upgraded 12C but everything was improved learning from the 12C. A lot of small tweaks amassed to a greater than 25% improvement IMHO almost to the extent of a 430 Scuderia versus a standard F430.

Yes but of the 25% of "new" parts a good proportion are different not necessarily better. Front end styling (subjective looks wise but does add front downforce), harder springs (a negative for me) and reworked heads/cams that add the extra torque. Standard carbon ceramic brakes are another new part but they still don't work as well as the 12C steel ones on the road. Software maps (suspension/engine/gearbox) don't really count as the they were all further optimized to suit the updated 12C. At most the 650S is a 10% improvement IMHO.

RamboLambo said:

Suddenly the car had a lot more soul, driver feel and excitement.

Maybe when driven more slowly but assuming similar spec and options are fitted e.g. both are spiders, both have sports exhaust etc, when you're on it the updated 12C has all the soul and excitement you need.

RamboLambo said:

Personally I think the defining difference between the 650S and 12C is the increase in torque of 70Nm and how its spread across the rev band.

I agree you can feel that extra torque in the mid range but wrung out to the limiter you can barely notice it. In some ways that mid range torque makes it feel more obviously turbocharged and I personally prefer the more linear delivery of the updated 12C (625hp) motor even if ultimately it isn't quite as quick.

When you take the time to learn it the updated 12C's adaptive gearbox program and haptic paddle shift mechanism (to control "pre-cog" gear selection) are IMHO superior to the 650S system where pre-cog, although still there, is very difficult to find and the unnecessary throttle blips on downchanges actually increase shift speed.

Don't get me wrong the 650S is a truly magnificent machine but I prefer the looks of the 12C front end, the wider suspension options and the gearchange hardware/software and honestly wouldn't swap my updated 12C (Coupe) for a similarly spec'd 650S... let alone a 458.

[RamboLambo]

p-car said:

I agree you can feel that extra torque in the mid range but wrung out to the limiter you can barely notice it. In some ways that mid range torque makes it feel more obviously turbocharged and I personally prefer the more linear delivery of the updated 12C (625hp) motor even if ultimately it isn't quite as quick.

When you take the time to learn it the updated 12C's adaptive gearbox program and haptic paddle shift mechanism (to control "pre-cog" gear selection) are IMHO superior to the 650S system where pre-cog, although still there, is very difficult to find and the unnecessary throttle blips on downchanges actually increase shift speed.

Don't get me wrong the 650S is a truly magnificent machine but I prefer the looks of the 12C front end, the wider suspension options and the gearchange hardware/software and honestly wouldn't swap my updated 12C (Coupe) for a similarly spec'd 650S... let alone a 458.

An interesting view point but factually incorrect and a fundamentally flawed argument IMHO.

Maybe you should watch this and re-assess : "So much better than a 12C it defies belief" - Steve Sutcliffe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5h8cx9BGR8

He actually liked the 12C in the first place as well.
My personal findings and experience mirrored this journo even before I saw the video, so much so I upped my budget by £80k to get a 650S spider over a used 2013 12C spider.
I'm sure others, particularly 12C owners would not see the value or merit in that but coming from a 430 Scuderia the 12C was far too sedate for me whereas the 650S hit it on the head with the subjective feel, noise and excitement factor.
All those little tweaks really did bring the car alive and judging by others feedback who have made the jump from 12C to 650S they seem to agree and have no regrets

[GTD40]

So not content with just trying to belittle all ferraris and Lambos, you're now starting on the 12C owners LOL

[sone]

GTD40 said:

So not content with just trying to belittle all ferraris and Lambos, you're now starting on the 12C owners LOL

You couldn't make it up, could ya!