New TSRGD REGS out (speed repeaters)
Discussion
Just a heads up on the old repeater sign chestnut etc 
http://www.roadsafetygb.org.uk/news/5013.html#.dpu...
http://www.roadsafetygb.org.uk/news/5013.html#.dpu...
All pretty sensible stuff, nothing to panic about IMO.
Streetlights present = 30, ergo no repeaters needed, the limit is obvious. No change to this rule. Non-lit 30mph areas will, IMO, still have repeaters as they do now.
20 zones - contain "calming" measures, and are in places with an average traffic speed of sub-24mph (when pre-20mph), so hardly likely to catch anyone out unless driving like a dick.
40/50/NSL - repeaters will be used as appropriate - more will go up if there is a history of non-compliance, if the road is self-enforcing due to bends etc then why add to the sign clutter?
(The people who determine where signs go are not in bed with the SCPs, the Police, etc.)
The changes give the option to reduce repeater use, they don't outlaw using them altogether. If there is an issue, and/or an appeal, then the number of repeaters will be looked at and judged whether or not there are too few. There will be independent safety auditors who will look at the number of repeaters, both at design stage, and once installed. If an existing repeater gets hit and knocked down, it will still be replaced as historically the road has been assessed as needing repeaters.
The illumination requirements for signs are common sense. Adhering to the old regs saw illuminated signs in places they really didn't need to be, and all the issues that surround it (power supply etc).
The new regs are going to be an improvement, definitely.
Streetlights present = 30, ergo no repeaters needed, the limit is obvious. No change to this rule. Non-lit 30mph areas will, IMO, still have repeaters as they do now.
20 zones - contain "calming" measures, and are in places with an average traffic speed of sub-24mph (when pre-20mph), so hardly likely to catch anyone out unless driving like a dick.
40/50/NSL - repeaters will be used as appropriate - more will go up if there is a history of non-compliance, if the road is self-enforcing due to bends etc then why add to the sign clutter?
(The people who determine where signs go are not in bed with the SCPs, the Police, etc.)
The changes give the option to reduce repeater use, they don't outlaw using them altogether. If there is an issue, and/or an appeal, then the number of repeaters will be looked at and judged whether or not there are too few. There will be independent safety auditors who will look at the number of repeaters, both at design stage, and once installed. If an existing repeater gets hit and knocked down, it will still be replaced as historically the road has been assessed as needing repeaters.
The illumination requirements for signs are common sense. Adhering to the old regs saw illuminated signs in places they really didn't need to be, and all the issues that surround it (power supply etc).
The new regs are going to be an improvement, definitely.
OpulentBob said:
All pretty sensible stuff, nothing to panic about IMO.
Streetlights present = 30, ergo no repeaters needed, the limit is obvious. No change to this rule. Non-lit 30mph areas will, IMO, still have repeaters as they do now.
20 zones - contain "calming" measures, and are in places with an average traffic speed of sub-24mph (when pre-20mph), so hardly likely to catch anyone out unless driving like a dick.
40/50/NSL - repeaters will be used as appropriate - more will go up if there is a history of non-compliance, if the road is self-enforcing due to bends etc then why add to the sign clutter?
(The people who determine where signs go are not in bed with the SCPs, the Police, etc.)
The changes give the option to reduce repeater use, they don't outlaw using them altogether. If there is an issue, and/or an appeal, then the number of repeaters will be looked at and judged whether or not there are too few. There will be independent safety auditors who will look at the number of repeaters, both at design stage, and once installed. If an existing repeater gets hit and knocked down, it will still be replaced as historically the road has been assessed as needing repeaters.
The illumination requirements for signs are common sense. Adhering to the old regs saw illuminated signs in places they really didn't need to be, and all the issues that surround it (power supply etc).
The new regs are going to be an improvement, definitely.
"Appropriate" is a weasel word. The distances between repeaters needs to be consistent to avoid confusion. Relying on bends to control speed is flawed because the speed will depend on the ability of the driver and the capability of the vehicle. Streetlights present = 30, ergo no repeaters needed, the limit is obvious. No change to this rule. Non-lit 30mph areas will, IMO, still have repeaters as they do now.
20 zones - contain "calming" measures, and are in places with an average traffic speed of sub-24mph (when pre-20mph), so hardly likely to catch anyone out unless driving like a dick.
40/50/NSL - repeaters will be used as appropriate - more will go up if there is a history of non-compliance, if the road is self-enforcing due to bends etc then why add to the sign clutter?
(The people who determine where signs go are not in bed with the SCPs, the Police, etc.)
The changes give the option to reduce repeater use, they don't outlaw using them altogether. If there is an issue, and/or an appeal, then the number of repeaters will be looked at and judged whether or not there are too few. There will be independent safety auditors who will look at the number of repeaters, both at design stage, and once installed. If an existing repeater gets hit and knocked down, it will still be replaced as historically the road has been assessed as needing repeaters.
The illumination requirements for signs are common sense. Adhering to the old regs saw illuminated signs in places they really didn't need to be, and all the issues that surround it (power supply etc).
The new regs are going to be an improvement, definitely.
Yeah ok then. 
Remove your paranoia. At 6am tomorrow, they won't be driving round removing repeaters just to catch you out or make you crash.
ETA to remove an unnecessary word.
ETA2 - I never said bends would be used to control speed - but (as an example) what benefit is there in having a repeater for NSL 15m before a corner with chevrons, just because the old regs say that repeaters are every 350m, and that is where 350m from the last one falls? That's the kind of situation it's talking about.
Remove your paranoia. At 6am tomorrow, they won't be driving round removing repeaters just to catch you out or make you crash.
ETA to remove an unnecessary word.
ETA2 - I never said bends would be used to control speed - but (as an example) what benefit is there in having a repeater for NSL 15m before a corner with chevrons, just because the old regs say that repeaters are every 350m, and that is where 350m from the last one falls? That's the kind of situation it's talking about.
Edited by OpulentBob on Thursday 21st April 09:49
OpulentBob said:
Yeah ok then.
Remove your paranoia. At 6am tomorrow morning, they won't be driving round removing repeaters just to catch you out or make you crash.
But "they" won't be replacing or maintaining existing repeaters. Nothing paranoid about wanting a consistently level playing field.Remove your paranoia. At 6am tomorrow morning, they won't be driving round removing repeaters just to catch you out or make you crash.
V8 Fettler said:
OpulentBob said:
Yeah ok then.
Remove your paranoia. At 6am tomorrow morning, they won't be driving round removing repeaters just to catch you out or make you crash.
But "they" won't be replacing or maintaining existing repeaters. Nothing paranoid about wanting a consistently level playing field.Remove your paranoia. At 6am tomorrow morning, they won't be driving round removing repeaters just to catch you out or make you crash.
We've been aware of these changes for a while and are quite prepared for them, don't worry.
OpulentBob said:
V8 Fettler said:
OpulentBob said:
Yeah ok then.
Remove your paranoia. At 6am tomorrow morning, they won't be driving round removing repeaters just to catch you out or make you crash.
But "they" won't be replacing or maintaining existing repeaters. Nothing paranoid about wanting a consistently level playing field.Remove your paranoia. At 6am tomorrow morning, they won't be driving round removing repeaters just to catch you out or make you crash.
We've been aware of these changes for a while and are quite prepared for them, don't worry.
Who decides if the repeater is needed? If it's in the hands of local gubmint then there is the risk that they'll make it up as they go along. Clear, prescriptive national legislation is required to ensure that signage is consistent.
V8 Fettler said:
Who is "we"?
People in the industry who use these documents day in, day out without a problem and without killing anyone and therefore without ending up in court defending ourselves. I know you have an issue with highways departments, you are like a stuck record - to be honest it just seems like you have a chip on your shoulder about it. I'm happy and confident they will work for 99.9% of the situations 99.9% of the time, I think panicking about them is misplaced and an over-reaction. Just anecdotally, when was the last time you were done for speeding, and was it because there were no repeaters? I've been caught speeding three times in my life, none were due to a lack of repeaters... (I know, not a comprehensive data analysis session but just to see if it would affect you, given your driving history.)
OpulentBob said:
Just anecdotally, when was the last time you were done for speeding, and was it because there were no repeaters?
It's interesting what's the effect of repeaters. For example driving around leafy surrey and sussex, the limits go up and down like something that goes up and down a lot...30,40,50,40,50 etc Then what happens is that people bimble round at their own chosen speed with no regard to what the limit actually is.It all comes down to how daft the speed limits actually are. There should only be 30 and NSL in my view!
Bert
OpulentBob said:
... 20 zones - contain "calming" measures, and are in places with an average traffic speed of sub-24mph (when pre-20mph), so hardly likely to catch anyone out unless driving like a dick.
There are plenty of 20 mph zones around Warrington with no calming measures. Plenty of those contain roads where 30 mph felt slow before they were zoned.Type R Tom said:
Can you show me a road (streetview) that felt like a 40 that is now a 20 with no calming? Interested to see.
Arguably the top of Westferry Road in London is an example: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5079898,-0.02715...Am sure the 20 is neither observed by the majority of traffic nor properly enforced - just a bunch extra white paint on the road.
OpulentBob said:
People in the industry who use these documents day in, day out without a problem and without killing anyone and therefore without ending up in court defending ourselves.
I have no 'training' in TSRGD just picked a lot up working with an excellent chap with many years experience and a detailed hawkeye knowledge and memory of the "legislation". So what makes it even more worrying is that with my lack of knowledge that I can look at a "consultants" drawing for a new road signage scheme in passing and the first thing I notice is they are using colours and symbols that went out in 2002 or after scheduled savings or just change signs like for like etc when they are patently wrong or the regs have changed or they "design to suit" without a relevant departure and special authorisation in place therefore making it 'unlawful', they are all over the place. I can't remember the name offhand but there is (or was) a website promoted by an ex traffic BIB offering a service to 'sue for compo' or 'get you off if you hit an 'unlawfully' placed sign.
tokyo_mb said:
Type R Tom said:
Can you show me a road (streetview) that felt like a 40 that is now a 20 with no calming? Interested to see.
Arguably the top of Westferry Road in London is an example: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5079898,-0.02715...Am sure the 20 is neither observed by the majority of traffic nor properly enforced - just a bunch extra white paint on the road.
Type R Tom said:
speedking31 said:
here are plenty of 20 mph zones around Warrington with no calming measures. Plenty of those contain roads where 30 mph felt slow before they were zoned.
Can you show me a road (streetview) that felt like a 40 that is now a 20 with no calming? Interested to see.OpulentBob said:
Yeah ok then.
Remove your paranoia. At 6am tomorrow, they won't be driving round removing repeaters just to catch you out or make you crash.
ETA to remove an unnecessary word.
ETA2 - I never said bends would be used to control speed - but (as an example) what benefit is there in having a repeater for NSL 15m before a corner with chevrons, just because the old regs say that repeaters are every 350m, and that is where 350m from the last one falls? That's the kind of situation it's talking about.
You said ...... if the road is self-enforcing due to bends.Remove your paranoia. At 6am tomorrow, they won't be driving round removing repeaters just to catch you out or make you crash.
ETA to remove an unnecessary word.
ETA2 - I never said bends would be used to control speed - but (as an example) what benefit is there in having a repeater for NSL 15m before a corner with chevrons, just because the old regs say that repeaters are every 350m, and that is where 350m from the last one falls? That's the kind of situation it's talking about.
Edited by OpulentBob on Thursday 21st April 09:49
Why are you back pedalling by editing previous posts? Are you incapable of following a logical process? Although if you're involved in road planning then logic might not be your strongest point.
OpulentBob said:
V8 Fettler said:
Who is "we"?
People in the industry who use these documents day in, day out without a problem and without killing anyone and therefore without ending up in court defending ourselves. I know you have an issue with highways departments, you are like a stuck record - to be honest it just seems like you have a chip on your shoulder about it. I'm happy and confident they will work for 99.9% of the situations 99.9% of the time, I think panicking about them is misplaced and an over-reaction. Just anecdotally, when was the last time you were done for speeding, and was it because there were no repeaters? I've been caught speeding three times in my life, none were due to a lack of repeaters... (I know, not a comprehensive data analysis session but just to see if it would affect you, given your driving history.)
On a local scale the general approach is incompetent, see how town centres are dying due to motorists flocking to out-of-town retail parks.
I have a balanced view with chips on both shoulders about people and organisations using my tax money ineffectively.
I have no interest in your driving history, that would involve moving the goal posts.
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