Ched Evans rape conviction quashed
Discussion
La Liga said:
t's no more complicated than pointing out an inaccuracy. If I said something incorrect about the Army I'm sure you'd point it out.
1) Twig posted some hypothetical circumstances to describe blackmail.
2) You told Twig he / she didn't understand what blackmail was.
3) I pointed out the circumstances fitted the offence of blackmail.
At that point you had a choice. The choice you made was to go on a Googlefest and try and prove the circumstances would amount to 'extortion'.
The problem there is that extortion isn't an offence.
1) Twig posted some hypothetical circumstances to describe blackmail.
2) You told Twig he / she didn't understand what blackmail was.
3) I pointed out the circumstances fitted the offence of blackmail.
At that point you had a choice. The choice you made was to go on a Googlefest and try and prove the circumstances would amount to 'extortion'.
The problem there is that extortion isn't an offence.
you do like to argue a lot. You need to go back and actually read what I've said and read in full the links I've posted. You're not proving anything other than your ability to derail a thread in order to try and prove a point which nobody has really made.
I don't believe JEH committed blackmail no more than I believe kidnapping someone and trying to extort money in return for sparing their life is.
You really think in those circumstances the offender would be charged with blackmail?
By the way, what on earth has the Army got to do with it?????
bmw535i said:
You need to go back and actually read what I've said and read in full the links I've posted. You're not proving anything other than your ability to derail a thread in order to try and prove a point which nobody has really made.
You told someone what they were describing wasn't blackmail when it was. I pointed that out. It's no more complicated than that. Your response was to suggest it was extortion as an alternative. I then asked you to find the law that makes extortion an offence. That's when you went off-track because, I presume, you were unable to find something that doesn't exist.
bmw535i said:
I don't believe JEH committed blackmail no more than I believe kidnapping someone and trying to extort money in return for sparing their life is.
You really think in those circumstances the offender would be charged with blackmail?
If you mean Twig's circumstances, then it's quite possible, when you look at the kidnapping and blackmail laws, that both charges could be forthcoming. You really think in those circumstances the offender would be charged with blackmail?
You don't have to search far to see examples like Twig's:
http://www.chesterchronicle.co.uk/news/chester-che...
The kidnappers / blackmailers got money from the victim's mother by threatening to kill him.
bmw535i said:
By the way, what on earth has the Army got to do with it?????
The relevance was to highlight that if someone mentioned something incorrect in your area of competence / expertise, then you'd probably feel inclined to point it out. bmw535i said:
So extortion doesn't exist? 
Not in the manner you presented: bmw535i said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
I don't think he understands what blackmail is.
Blackmail - Give me something I'm not entitled to, or I will do something unpleasant to you (usually illegal) that you don't deserve. Eg. Pay me £1m, or I will kill your family member I am holding hostage.
Statement of fact - If you employ a convicted rapist, I want my name removed from your stand as I will wish to end my association with you.
You may agree or disagree with JEH's stance, but blackmail it ain't.
Er I think your scenario is more akin to kidnap and extortion. Blackmail - Give me something I'm not entitled to, or I will do something unpleasant to you (usually illegal) that you don't deserve. Eg. Pay me £1m, or I will kill your family member I am holding hostage.
Statement of fact - If you employ a convicted rapist, I want my name removed from your stand as I will wish to end my association with you.
You may agree or disagree with JEH's stance, but blackmail it ain't.
You definitely don't understand what blackmail is
I'm more inclined to listen to the NCA.......
http://www.nationalcrimeagency.gov.uk/crime-threat...
Or a specialist law firm:
http://londoncriminalsolicitors.co.uk/theft/blackm...
Or another specialist law firm:
http://www.marymonson.co.uk/criminal-solicitors/bl...
Or another law firm:
https://www.qamarsolicitors.co.uk/services/general...
........than someone who quite clearly isn't an expert (I only assume this from your failure to answer)
Perhaps we should return the thread to the topic in hand rather than you continue to derail it further by trying to open up other cases not relevant?
Aside from that, quite a pleasant exchange, although it's a shame that people on here often tend to refer to ones armed service in an attempt to gain traction in a debate (I can never work out why - morbid curiosity perhaps?).
Anyway, cheers
http://www.nationalcrimeagency.gov.uk/crime-threat...
Or a specialist law firm:
http://londoncriminalsolicitors.co.uk/theft/blackm...
Or another specialist law firm:
http://www.marymonson.co.uk/criminal-solicitors/bl...
Or another law firm:
https://www.qamarsolicitors.co.uk/services/general...
........than someone who quite clearly isn't an expert (I only assume this from your failure to answer)
Perhaps we should return the thread to the topic in hand rather than you continue to derail it further by trying to open up other cases not relevant?
Aside from that, quite a pleasant exchange, although it's a shame that people on here often tend to refer to ones armed service in an attempt to gain traction in a debate (I can never work out why - morbid curiosity perhaps?).
Anyway, cheers
Believe what you want. If you want to post links then post the legislation - why is that so hard? Extortion isn't a criminal offence and saying something is NOT blackmail and is extortion is factually wrong. I even provided an example case similar to the circumstances being discussed (you've declined to comment upon along with not answering other questions) to illustrate the point.
Expertise is relative. Compared to 99% of the population who haven't investigated major crime, then, yes i'm an expert. Compared to QCs who specialise in prosecuting and defending blackmail offences, then no, I wouldn't be such an expert.
It's been explained why I made reference to your occupation. For some reason you're misrepresenting why.
Expertise is relative. Compared to 99% of the population who haven't investigated major crime, then, yes i'm an expert. Compared to QCs who specialise in prosecuting and defending blackmail offences, then no, I wouldn't be such an expert.
It's been explained why I made reference to your occupation. For some reason you're misrepresenting why.
La Liga said:
Believe what you want. If you want to post links then post the legislation - why is that so hard? Extortion isn't a criminal offence and saying something is NOT blackmail and is extortion is factually wrong. I even provided an example case similar to the circumstances being discussed (you've declined to comment upon along with not answering other questions) to illustrate the point.
Expertise is relative. Compared to 99% of the population who haven't investigated major crime, then, yes i'm an expert. Compared to QCs who specialise in prosecuting and defending blackmail offences, then no, I wouldn't be such an expert.
It's been explained why I made reference to your occupation. For some reason you're misrepresenting why.
I'll stand by this comment I made some months ago :Expertise is relative. Compared to 99% of the population who haven't investigated major crime, then, yes i'm an expert. Compared to QCs who specialise in prosecuting and defending blackmail offences, then no, I wouldn't be such an expert.
It's been explained why I made reference to your occupation. For some reason you're misrepresenting why.
bmw535i said:
Thanks for the constructive reply, it's genuinely helpful. I have to ask though: Why do police officers (and some others) on here always draw comparisons with how things work in the army when discussing a topic.
To answer your question though, I'd ring, email, IM, text, Facebook, whattsapp or send a runner. We don't work shifts - it's easy to reach people anywhere in the world. I was plucked from a mountain in Canada and rushed back to the UK as my wife lay dying - where there's a will, there's a way
Some things never change. I guess you're still annoyed about the negative light the police are often discussed in on here - including the ched Evans case. I suppose you're a bit blinkered.To answer your question though, I'd ring, email, IM, text, Facebook, whattsapp or send a runner. We don't work shifts - it's easy to reach people anywhere in the world. I was plucked from a mountain in Canada and rushed back to the UK as my wife lay dying - where there's a will, there's a way
Thankfully justice has prevailed in this case despite the best efforts of the police and prosecution.
I will bear in mind your self confessed legal expertise, or lack there of, in this area, but would prefer to rely on those that know. Perhaps we will have to agree to disagree on the irrelevance of the argument you started and seem so determined to continue.
For those that don't know, mr liga is probably still upset over a thread I started some months ago regarding the police.
bmw535i said:
Some things never change. I guess you're still annoyed about the negative light the police are often discussed in on here - including the ched Evans case. I suppose you're a bit blinkered.
Thankfully justice has prevailed in this case despite the best efforts of the police and prosecution.
I will bear in mind your self confessed legal expertise, or lack there of, in this area, but would prefer to rely on those that know. Perhaps we will have to agree to disagree on the irrelevance of the argument you started and seem so determined to continue.
For those that don't know, mr liga is probably still upset over a thread I started some months ago regarding the police.
The smoke and mirrors and speculative nonsense doesn't detract from the fact you told someone they didn't understand what blackmail was, when in fact it was you who didn't understand what it was. Thankfully justice has prevailed in this case despite the best efforts of the police and prosecution.
I will bear in mind your self confessed legal expertise, or lack there of, in this area, but would prefer to rely on those that know. Perhaps we will have to agree to disagree on the irrelevance of the argument you started and seem so determined to continue.
For those that don't know, mr liga is probably still upset over a thread I started some months ago regarding the police.
There's nothing wrong with not knowing or making a mistake. It's refusing to acknowledge it and doing all you can to try and justify a false position that's a little sad.
La Liga said:
he smoke and mirrors and speculative nonsense doesn't detract from the fact you told someone they didn't understand what blackmail was, when in fact it was you who didn't understand what it was.
There's nothing wrong with not knowing or making a mistake. It's refusing to acknowledge it and doing all you can to try and justify a false position that's a little sad.
I know what it is. You must be in a fairly small minority not to know what extortion is though.There's nothing wrong with not knowing or making a mistake. It's refusing to acknowledge it and doing all you can to try and justify a false position that's a little sad.
You keep going though.
Most people would agree that the scenario described would be kidnap and extortion. Once again, perhaps we should agree to disagree.
http://library.college.police.uk/docs/acpo/Nationa...
https://westmercia.police.uk/media/1239/Kidnap--Ex...
http://www.southyorkshire.police.uk/content/invest...
http://www.npcc.police.uk/documents/crime/2011/201...
http://policeauthority.derbyshire.police.uk/Docume...
https://www.ipcc.gov.uk/sites/default/files/Docume...
Seems quite clear to me.
Perhaps I'm sad.........meh. Your opinion matters not to me
bmw535i said:
It says a lot about people who don't care, but feel compelled to add personal insults to the conversation.
As ever, Bullshire say it best https://www.facebook.com/BullshirePolice/photos/a....
Red 4 said:
bmw535i said:
It says a lot about people who don't care, but feel compelled to add personal insults to the conversation.
As ever, Bullshire say it best https://www.facebook.com/BullshirePolice/photos/a....
What do you do for a living?
bmw535i said:
Most people would agree that the scenario described would be kidnap and extortion. Once again, perhaps we should agree to disagree.
Seems quite clear to me.
The scenario described was: Seems quite clear to me.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Blackmail - Give me something I'm not entitled to, or I will do something unpleasant to you (usually illegal) that you don't deserve. Eg. Pay me £1m, or I will kill your family member I am holding hostage.
To which you replied: bmw535i said:
Er I think your scenario is more akin to kidnap and extortion.
You definitely don't understand what blackmail is
Which was incorrect as the circumstances fit within blackmail, and not extortion as the offence does not exist in law (which you know full well when trying to pretend I'm talking about the concept of extortion). You definitely don't understand what blackmail is
You can try and complicate and muddy something simple, but it's ineffective.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=extortion&ie...
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=blackmail&ie...
I've simplified it for you
Pretty sure I know which of those words describe our scenario.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=blackmail&ie...
I've simplified it for you
Pretty sure I know which of those words describe our scenario.
bmw535i said:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=extortion&ie...
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=blackmail&ie...
I've simplified it for you
Pretty sure I know which of those words describe our scenario.
It does describe it, but we're talking about criminal law, not dictionary definitions. I think you've forgotten my original reply with all your Googling: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=blackmail&ie...
I've simplified it for you
Pretty sure I know which of those words describe our scenario.
La Liga said:
You think wrong - well, extortion is basically blackmail. What he describes is blackmail as well as kidnap.
My point has always been you were wrong to tell him he didn't understand blackmail and that his scenario was indeed blackmail. Rather than accept this you've decided to dig many big holes. Do you still think he was wrong?
La Liga said:
y point has always been you were wrong to tell him he didn't understand blackmail and that his scenario was indeed blackmail. Rather than accept this you've decided to dig many big holes.
Do you still think he was wrong?
Yes. I think it's more akin to kidnap and extortion. Everything I've read confirms it. Do you still think he was wrong?
I've tried suggesting we agree to disagree, but you're like a dog with a bone, you and your injured sidekick.
bmw535i said:
La Liga said:
y point has always been you were wrong to tell him he didn't understand blackmail and that his scenario was indeed blackmail. Rather than accept this you've decided to dig many big holes.
Do you still think he was wrong?
Yes. I think it's more akin to kidnap and extortion. Everything I've read confirms it. Do you still think he was wrong?
I've tried suggesting we agree to disagree, but you're like a dog with a bone, you and your injured sidekick.
However, when talking about the actual law there is only blackmail. Extortion 'lives' within the 'umbrella' of blackmail in terms of the law we have. They are synonyms.
This case illustrates the point nicely: http://www.chesterchronicle.co.uk/news/chester-che...
It fits the 'extortion' definition you provided, but the offence was blackmail.
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