The M25 "Queue Ahead" game
Discussion
speedyguy said:
Anyway this subject has been done to death before I'm out as is one of the best most knowledgeable RCC operators in the land as Gafferjim completes his last shift and retires today, I'm pretty sure he's taken a bunch of PH's around one of the RCC's.
He did indeed, I was one of them, most interesting. Happy retirement Gafferjim.No such system exists in the USA, well not in California where I spend a lot of time. Instead there are large digital signs that alert you to situations, either accidents up ahead, sometimes disgraceful traffic (in L.A for example) but also serve to warn people about wanted criminals in particular cars. It actually seems to work quite well, and there's no fine waiting for the driver a couple of weeks later if they've happened to misjudge it. Especially around San Digeo where military vehicles are in abundance, it helps to know. The latter however works really well, as if the crim hits the freeway, a lot of people call it in, then you get those wild news helicopter chases 
, or most usually the police catch up and detain.
I prefer this system, but then again I'm always focused on the road. Most people on the M25 would be too dumb to read the signs, or to know what they should do. No common sense.
America of course has its own problems, such like legal undertaking (that's fine) but coupled with spazzy merging manoeuvres. Or, red light runners; that's a huge issue on intersections which the UK has mitigated with either driver education or cameras at junctions.
, or most usually the police catch up and detain.I prefer this system, but then again I'm always focused on the road. Most people on the M25 would be too dumb to read the signs, or to know what they should do. No common sense.
America of course has its own problems, such like legal undertaking (that's fine) but coupled with spazzy merging manoeuvres. Or, red light runners; that's a huge issue on intersections which the UK has mitigated with either driver education or cameras at junctions.
Edited by 1Addicted on Friday 22 April 10:23
Gren said:
I tend to find that slowing motorway speed traffic down to 40mph creates its own traffic jams anyway.
Pre-emptive speed restrictions. Clever eh?
setting the signs at 40 means traffic stops, and usually a near miss rear end happens as a result. The theory how these work is great, the actual result is fPre-emptive speed restrictions. Clever eh?
kwitery, the M62 ones Westbound to the M1 have never worked properly, set just for the hell of it, they just do not work.This must be either a "southern" thing (for the M25) or a "northern" thing (for the M62). I travel regularly on the M6/M5/M42 box and although the limits at quieter times do seem a bit pointless since they extended the managed section of the M6 down to J4 the morning run has become a lot smoother (not saying faster) generally at 60 mph but with reductions to 50 at the junctions. Everyone seems to take heed with not too much bunching and late braking. Just my take from the last 10 years of using it.
Trax said:
setting the signs at 40 means traffic stops, and usually a near miss rear end happens as a result. The theory how these work is great, the actual result is fkwitery, the M62 ones Westbound to the M1 have never worked properly, set just for the hell of it, they just do not work.
bkwitery, the M62 ones Westbound to the M1 have never worked properly, set just for the hell of it, they just do not work.ks. The M62 ones are superb. You used to queue from 7am from Halifax all the way to Leeds and it would take up to two hours to cover a 5 mile stretch. It now flows albeit at c40mph. And is much quicker. The only challenge is the M621 now can't cope with the traffic being delivered so efficiently.
snorky782 said:
Trax said:
setting the signs at 40 means traffic stops, and usually a near miss rear end happens as a result. The theory how these work is great, the actual result is fkwitery, the M62 ones Westbound to the M1 have never worked properly, set just for the hell of it, they just do not work.
bkwitery, the M62 ones Westbound to the M1 have never worked properly, set just for the hell of it, they just do not work.ks. The M62 ones are superb. You used to queue from 7am from Halifax all the way to Leeds and it would take up to two hours to cover a 5 mile stretch. It now flows albeit at c40mph. And is much quicker. The only challenge is the M621 now can't cope with the traffic being delivered so efficiently.
You can't reason with these people - they are innumerate. There are a few on here!
Far worse from my perspective was last weekend, travelling round the M25 anticlockwise heading for the M3. Approaching the M3 junction the gantries were happily telling us that there was a workforce in the road.
There wasn't.
What they could have been telling me though was that the slip road to the southbound M3 was shut. What a lovely surprise to round the corner and find both lanes had a red X over them. Most ignored them, but I went all the way up to the Sunbury turning and back down again. On the way back down the M3 back towards the M25 junction the overhead gantries were telling me that the M3 was shut.
It wasn't.
Useless. If I had of known the slip was shut (for apparently no reason since everyone else drove down it) I would have carried on down to the A3 which would have been quicker than the extra diversion I had to take.
I often use that stretch of the M25 late at night (around 2-3am) and I've lost count of how many times I've seen queue ahead when there are no vehicles around, or the current favourite - reducing the speed limit to 30mph on the main carriageway due to a lane closure on a slip road. I'm not sure that's entirely necessary at any time, let alone at the dead of night when traffic is non existant!
There wasn't.
What they could have been telling me though was that the slip road to the southbound M3 was shut. What a lovely surprise to round the corner and find both lanes had a red X over them. Most ignored them, but I went all the way up to the Sunbury turning and back down again. On the way back down the M3 back towards the M25 junction the overhead gantries were telling me that the M3 was shut.
It wasn't.
Useless. If I had of known the slip was shut (for apparently no reason since everyone else drove down it) I would have carried on down to the A3 which would have been quicker than the extra diversion I had to take.
I often use that stretch of the M25 late at night (around 2-3am) and I've lost count of how many times I've seen queue ahead when there are no vehicles around, or the current favourite - reducing the speed limit to 30mph on the main carriageway due to a lane closure on a slip road. I'm not sure that's entirely necessary at any time, let alone at the dead of night when traffic is non existant!
Speed Badger said:
The signs are operated by humans from the control room. Often if they spot a high volume of traffic miles in the distance, they will slow traffic down miles behind to keep the M25 flowing (in an ideal world 
), so on a lot of these occasions when a reduced limit is enforced, there is no immediate queue, it just staggers the flow of traffic to keep everything (hopefully) moving along.
Ermmm no, the MIDAS system runs the gantries using loops in the carriageway and detects the slow moving traffic and automatically sets lower speeds prior to this location.), so on a lot of these occasions when a reduced limit is enforced, there is no immediate queue, it just staggers the flow of traffic to keep everything (hopefully) moving along.The control can also set manual signals for other issues.
Poshbury said:
M25, 3am, off to the Eurotunnel on the way to France. All of a sudden, the 40 signs are lit.
I was the only car on my side of the motorway. Needless to say, I cheated a bit between the signs, easy in an XJR.
Eventually I caught up with the problem. It was a low loader transporting a diesel locomotive, a type 47 for any train spotters out there! Crawling along in the nearside lane.
The irony was that I had just finished work at Reading where I was a train driver.
In my opinion, that's a pretty poor reason for having those 40 signs lit.
This is the issue of automated systems that cannot be over riddien. The MIDAS system detects numerous wheels passing the loop together and is confusing thinking it's queing traffic and therefore reduces the limit. It's a major bug of the system.I was the only car on my side of the motorway. Needless to say, I cheated a bit between the signs, easy in an XJR.
Eventually I caught up with the problem. It was a low loader transporting a diesel locomotive, a type 47 for any train spotters out there! Crawling along in the nearside lane.
The irony was that I had just finished work at Reading where I was a train driver.
In my opinion, that's a pretty poor reason for having those 40 signs lit.
SBDJ said:
Far worse from my perspective was last weekend, travelling round the M25 anticlockwise heading for the M3. Approaching the M3 junction the gantries were happily telling us that there was a workforce in the road.
There wasn't.
What they could have been telling me though was that the slip road to the southbound M3 was shut. What a lovely surprise to round the corner and find both lanes had a red X over them. Most ignored them, but I went all the way up to the Sunbury turning and back down again. On the way back down the M3 back towards the M25 junction the overhead gantries were telling me that the M3 was shut.
It wasn't.
Useless. If I had of known the slip was shut (for apparently no reason since everyone else drove down it) I would have carried on down to the A3 which would have been quicker than the extra diversion I had to take.
I often use that stretch of the M25 late at night (around 2-3am) and I've lost count of how many times I've seen queue ahead when there are no vehicles around, or the current favourite - reducing the speed limit to 30mph on the main carriageway due to a lane closure on a slip road. I'm not sure that's entirely necessary at any time, let alone at the dead of night when traffic is non existant!
There are gantries that state M3 entry closed all around the southern section of the M25 when it's closed overnight, but there is not enough.There wasn't.
What they could have been telling me though was that the slip road to the southbound M3 was shut. What a lovely surprise to round the corner and find both lanes had a red X over them. Most ignored them, but I went all the way up to the Sunbury turning and back down again. On the way back down the M3 back towards the M25 junction the overhead gantries were telling me that the M3 was shut.
It wasn't.
Useless. If I had of known the slip was shut (for apparently no reason since everyone else drove down it) I would have carried on down to the A3 which would have been quicker than the extra diversion I had to take.
I often use that stretch of the M25 late at night (around 2-3am) and I've lost count of how many times I've seen queue ahead when there are no vehicles around, or the current favourite - reducing the speed limit to 30mph on the main carriageway due to a lane closure on a slip road. I'm not sure that's entirely necessary at any time, let alone at the dead of night when traffic is non existant!
The cones and closures have to be lifted at some point and I imagine that's what you came across.
SBDJ said:
...Far worse from my perspective was last weekend, travelling round the M25 anticlockwise heading for the M3. Approaching the M3 junction the gantries were happily telling us that there was a workforce in the road.
There wasn't.
both lanes had a red X over them. Most ignored them,
I was on the M25 the other night around 10pm, there was plenty of this going on.There wasn't.
both lanes had a red X over them. Most ignored them,
Sometimes it was obvious the workforce was just about to start putting cones out or had just started, however everyone was ignoring the red Xs and using all the lanes with typically bad lane discipline.
One sliproad off to a major road ( I forget which) was marked as closed but people were still using it.....
I thought that was an offence?
Glad I don't work on the motorways!
Landshark said:
There are gantries that state M3 entry closed all around the southern section of the M25 when it's closed overnight, but there is not enough.
The cones and closures have to be lifted at some point and I imagine that's what you came across.
I joined at the A41 by Watford and came round to the M3 and don't recall seeing a single gantry telling me the M3 was closed southbound. Plenty warning me of congestion, queues and workers in the road. Irrespective of the closures/cones being put down or removed, if a slip road is closed then IMHO the very last gantry should mention that - especially when the X cannot be seen until you've already left the motorway. It can't be too complicated to co-ordinate that with the red X.The cones and closures have to be lifted at some point and I imagine that's what you came across.
DJFish said:
I thought that was an offence?
Glad I don't work on the motorways!
It is an offence. I pity the workers!Glad I don't work on the motorways!
Question: Is there a reliable source I can use to find out when the M3 is closed? Many times I have googled and failed to find confirmation of a closure for overnight works, yet sure enough I get there and it's closed and I have to take a slower route when I could have just taken the A3 instead.
I am glad someone has brought this up as I too have been meaning to. Recently I have been fairly regularly off to Heathrow for 0600 or 0500 and come across these bullsh#t made up signs that bear no relation to the traffic on the road. Whoever programmed this sh#t needs to redo it so that a human can override the 'thick' computer.
Outside of these 'non traffic' times (let's say 2300 to 0530) there are still enormous problems. I drive along at 80 in the outside lane and then see a 40 sign ahead. I immediately cut into lane one and then have HGVs on my bumper flashing me whilst everyone else continues at 80 in the outside lane. I refused to believe that the 50 plus vehicles that pass me are given tickets and more often than not the next sign is NSL 70+
It is a poorly written programme that deliberately turns motorists against it due to the fact that it is incompetent. A bit like the three northern lasses that would not serve me as the till was broken "they have cash handling procedures" apparently. The was no real comeback when I put it to them that there boss was paying three wages and they would collect nothing for him to pay those wages because the till was not working. Rigid procedures .......... does not compute!
Whilst on the subject, the M25 needs to be resurfaced around junction 8/9 as concrete road in a G5 country is simply not acceptable.
Pip
Outside of these 'non traffic' times (let's say 2300 to 0530) there are still enormous problems. I drive along at 80 in the outside lane and then see a 40 sign ahead. I immediately cut into lane one and then have HGVs on my bumper flashing me whilst everyone else continues at 80 in the outside lane. I refused to believe that the 50 plus vehicles that pass me are given tickets and more often than not the next sign is NSL 70+
It is a poorly written programme that deliberately turns motorists against it due to the fact that it is incompetent. A bit like the three northern lasses that would not serve me as the till was broken "they have cash handling procedures" apparently. The was no real comeback when I put it to them that there boss was paying three wages and they would collect nothing for him to pay those wages because the till was not working. Rigid procedures .......... does not compute!
Whilst on the subject, the M25 needs to be resurfaced around junction 8/9 as concrete road in a G5 country is simply not acceptable.
Pip
Neither are acceptable, potholes OR concrete. Concrete only possiby for the 'Wehrmacht' to allow convoys of Tiger tanks a speedy approach to ze border but these days.... errr, No. I cannot beleive the noise that emanates from driving on it. It is like listening to Corbin's solution on nuclear deterrent.
Pip
Pip
SBDJ said:
It is an offence. I pity the workers!
Question: Is there a reliable source I can use to find out when the M3 is closed? Many times I have googled and failed to find confirmation of a closure for overnight works, yet sure enough I get there and it's closed and I have to take a slower route when I could have just taken the A3 instead.
I have signed up on the Highways page and they send me an email to tell me each time they close it, I get a lot of emails from them!! I'll see if I can find the linkQuestion: Is there a reliable source I can use to find out when the M3 is closed? Many times I have googled and failed to find confirmation of a closure for overnight works, yet sure enough I get there and it's closed and I have to take a slower route when I could have just taken the A3 instead.
http://www.highways.gov.uk/roads/road-projects/m3-...
Edited by Landshark on Saturday 23 April 10:34
The concrete sections were deliberately roughed up in the overnight works last year. I assume they had become too polished and were causing accidents. However they are now unbelievably loud and my car noticeably tram lines and shimmies around in certain lanes.
There was/is a section of ultra quiet tarmac at J9 which was a revelation when it first went down, but I assume the costs were too much to make this standard. In fact I am sure when the 3 to 4 lane expansion was proposed on that section there was talk of using a quieter road surface to reduce noise for residents, not no surprise that never happened.
There was/is a section of ultra quiet tarmac at J9 which was a revelation when it first went down, but I assume the costs were too much to make this standard. In fact I am sure when the 3 to 4 lane expansion was proposed on that section there was talk of using a quieter road surface to reduce noise for residents, not no surprise that never happened.
Are they limited to only 2 settings per motorway ?
M25 at 3am on the northern section signs saying congestion ahead .Nothing .
M1 southbound at 2am lanes 2 3 +4 shown as closed .Nothing .
M40 every night after midnight the signs have shown animals in the carriageway, never seen one ever .
The worst they did recently coming out of Southampton was to show that the M3 northbound was closed ,not a problem I thought ,I'll use the A3 .
What they didn't inform anybody was that the M27 and the A3M and later the A3 was also closed .
M25 at 3am on the northern section signs saying congestion ahead .Nothing .
M1 southbound at 2am lanes 2 3 +4 shown as closed .Nothing .
M40 every night after midnight the signs have shown animals in the carriageway, never seen one ever .
The worst they did recently coming out of Southampton was to show that the M3 northbound was closed ,not a problem I thought ,I'll use the A3 .
What they didn't inform anybody was that the M27 and the A3M and later the A3 was also closed .
Landshark said:
Thanks, I'm heading that way tonight so it's useful 
M42 limits are regularly lit, regardless of traffic flow.
I was genuinely shocked back in October when I drove it and they weren't lit - on way to the airport, saw the 1 mile sign for J6, started to pull onto the hard shoulder (which is always a live lane when the gantries are lit with reduced limits) when I realised I actually couldn't this time!
That's the only time in about 2 years I can recall them not being lit. And outside of rush hour there's usually no need...
I was genuinely shocked back in October when I drove it and they weren't lit - on way to the airport, saw the 1 mile sign for J6, started to pull onto the hard shoulder (which is always a live lane when the gantries are lit with reduced limits) when I realised I actually couldn't this time!
That's the only time in about 2 years I can recall them not being lit. And outside of rush hour there's usually no need...
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