The M25 "Queue Ahead" game

[covboy]

havoc said:

M42 limits are regularly lit, regardless of traffic flow.

I was genuinely shocked back in October when I drove it and they weren't lit - on way to the airport, saw the 1 mile sign for J6, started to pull onto the hard shoulder (which is always a live lane when the gantries are lit with reduced limits) when I realised I actually couldn't this time!

That's the only time in about 2 years I can recall them not being lit. And outside of rush hour there's usually no need...

To be fair when the hard shoulder on the M6 isn't being used they do tend to have the matrix signs showing "Hard Shoulder for Emergencies only"

[Iva Barchetta]

M23 about 10pm last night,a 50 mph advisory with lane closed notice.

Nope,not anything closed at all,NSL sign on the next gantry less than a mile ahead.

[Beggarall]

More muppetry last night on the M25
1. J8-J9 (again) - "Queue Ahead" 60mph. Next gantry (with speed camera) 40mph - lots of brake lights. Next gantry "all clear NSL". No queue and traffic quite light.
2. J10- J11 "incident" 60 then 50 then 60 plus inside lane "X" - this is camera alley with cameras on most of the gantries. No incident seen.
3. J15-J16 - "Queue ahead" 60. No queues. NSL after the camera.

Maybe the incident had cleared and they just hadn't switched off the signs but the restriction between J8-J9 seems just a cynical trap as it is only around the speed camera and the braking is dangerous. Is there any way to make a complaint about this?

Subsidiary note - earlier that day "pedestrians in road" had speed restriction 50 the entire length between J9- J8. No pedestrians seen. If they had been there the restriction would have been reasonable - but for the entire section? Surely not - and with all those millions of surveillance cameras someone could have been "looking out" and maybe even contacted the police of HA? Finally M3 closed at exit from M25 - there are roadworks publicised with planned closures 18-19 May ....but yesterday was the 17 May. What are these Smart Motorway men doing?

[Gafferjim]

markmullen said:

He did indeed, I was one of them, most interesting. Happy retirement Gafferjim.

Thanks Mark, I hope that I answered a few questions for you.

A short explanation for those that think the operators set signals just to ps off drivers.

Anything with "QUEUE" in the message is set by MIDAS (Motorway Incident Detection And Signalling) an automatic system that reads the average speed and numbers of vehicles passing over sensors in the road in EACH lane.

It can only set speed steps up to 20mph slower than the previous signal, so if it was normal 70mph running, the first sign would be 50, then 40. the ONLY way there would be nothing on the sign previous to a 40, is if the previous sign was faulty and not showing.
If signals are set for anything else, there is a hard and fast procedure that MUST be strictly adhered to on risk of serious consequences if it's done wrong. Operators are also timed on how long it takes to have signals set from the start of the log, and how long to clear them when asked to.

Anything that could affect a live running lane, or is of a safety nature, Signals MUST, I repeat MUST be set.
If the information comes from a confirmed reliable source, ie HATO, Police, HE contractor, then appropriate signs & signals will be set, lane closure, severe speeds and better messages.
If on the other hand the information has come from any other source, signals still have to be set, but will be set for 50's INCIDENT, until it's confirmed, either by a patrol, or on CCTV.
This is where correct information from those that report incidents is crucial. Normally we'll just get between J# and J#, so have to set 50's throughout until either found and adjusted, or checked and nothing found.
There are some exceptions with regards to the message signs, Normally these would be "INCIDENT" if not confirmed, but certain things are deemed more serious and the reported problem is also set on the message sign. ie. "ONCOMING VEHICLE" "PEDESTRIANS IN ROAD" "ANIMALS IN ROAD" Any other message other than INCIDENT means that it's been confirmed, probably by CCTV.

• *** NOTE; Signs and signals can only be completely cleared once a Patrol, Police or HATO confirms that they can.

Messages for FOG, WIND, are now set by automatic sensors.
Messages " 10 miles to J~~, 8 mins" type, are also set by automation.
Campaign messages such like, "check your fuel" "don't drive tired" "watch for bikes" are agreed upon by the higher-ups working from history of those types of incidents in those area's most affected, and are set by the NTICC
Messaged about closure somewhere miles away are also set by NTICC. Regional Control rooms can only set up to 2 junctions away from any incident.

Just to finish off, if you think that operators have the time to play about with things, then think again, in the NW control room which is one of the busiest with 14 different motorways, sometimes during the day we've been down to 6 operators and 3 on nights, other smaller control rooms have been down to even less.

These are a couple of areas of signals.
Part of the NWRCC region.



Where the M61 joins the M60. you can see some signals and a message sign in red, these are faulty awaiting repairs.
The signals in purple (top left of the pic) the HDS has been adjusted, (Highest Displayable Speed) at the time, there were roadworks there, so the signals were set so they would not show anything higher than 50mph.

The small squares with lines in, are MIDAS sensors, the ones in purple have been deactivated on an entry slip. (Most entry slips sensors have been deactivated,)

Edited by Gafferjim on Wednesday 18th May 09:43

[rxe]

Beggarall said:

More muppetry last night on the M25
1. J8-J9 (again) - "Queue Ahead" 60mph. Next gantry (with speed camera) 40mph - lots of brake lights. Next gantry "all clear NSL". No queue and traffic quite light.
2. J10- J11 "incident" 60 then 50 then 60 plus inside lane "X" - this is camera alley with cameras on most of the gantries. No incident seen.
3. J15-J16 - "Queue ahead" 60. No queues. NSL after the camera.

Maybe the incident had cleared and they just hadn't switched off the signs but the restriction between J8-J9 seems just a cynical trap as it is only around the speed camera and the braking is dangerous. Is there any way to make a complaint about this?

Subsidiary note - earlier that day "pedestrians in road" had speed restriction 50 the entire length between J9- J8. No pedestrians seen. If they had been there the restriction would have been reasonable - but for the entire section? Surely not - and with all those millions of surveillance cameras someone could have been "looking out" and maybe even contacted the police of HA? Finally M3 closed at exit from M25 - there are roadworks publicised with planned closures 18-19 May ....but yesterday was the 17 May. What are these Smart Motorway men doing?

The "queue" ahead gag was active on the M25 J16 late Sunday night. Empty road, suddenly we were down to 40. Waze (far more accurate than anything else out there), reported nothing. Of course there was nothing - just a great expanse of empty motorway with a few cars on it.

For all the protestations of how hard it is, it seems very broken - my default reaction when seeing a message is "that's probably bull****", and 9 times out of 10 it is. If there are operators, look at the cameras (you've got enough of them) and just clear the signs. I'd vastly prefer to believe the signs....but right now they are far too unreliable.

[Beggarall]

Thanks Gafferjim for copying your reply

"Thanks Mark, I hope that I answered a few questions for you.
A short explanation for those that think the operators set signals just to ps off drivers.
Anything with "QUEUE" in the message is set by MIDAS (Motorway Incident Detection And Signalling) an automatic system that reads the average speed and numbers of vehicles passing over sensors in the road in EACH lane."

Well it looks like the automated systems need reprogramming - because someone has obviously inserted some cynical script. The Smart Motorways are just not very clever - and it is remarkable how these bogus alerts occur around "enforcement" cameras. It can't be too difficult to have an alarm set to wake the operators up when one of these Midas alerts is triggered. They could then turn it off (or maybe the smart machinery won't let them!). I would still like to know who to complain to.

[rxe]

Yep, for clarity, I'm not assuming that people are deliberately enraging drivers as part of some bizarre social experiment.

It's just a sloppily tuned system that throws too many false positives - and as anyone involved in safety-critical stuff knows, loads of false positives lead the operators to assume they are all false, and that ends in disaster. "Yeah, the indicator was red, but it is always red" is alarmingly common in root cause analysis of incidents.

[Bodged]

rxe said:

Yep, for clarity, I'm not assuming that people are deliberately enraging drivers as part of some bizarre social experiment.

It's just a sloppily tuned system that throws too many false positives - and as anyone involved in safety-critical stuff knows, loads of false positives lead the operators to assume they are all false, and that ends in disaster. "Yeah, the indicator was red, but it is always red" is alarmingly common in root cause analysis of incidents.

Nail on the head there, I appreciate there are people behind the system and they do their best but unfortunately the signs are 9 times out of 10 incorrect, in my experience.

[Gafferjim]

Is it not like speed camera locations on a normal road? drivers know where they are so brake heavily to make sure they're under the limit, when in fact they've slowed down to well under the speed limit causing following traffic to do likewise. The cameras are not on every gantry.

I can't speak about "Smart motorways" from an operators point of view, they're still building the first one in the NW, so the only view that I have about them is similar to yourselves, as a driver.

[Pete317]

Gafferjim said:

Is it not like speed camera locations on a normal road? drivers know where they are so brake heavily to make sure they're under the limit, when in fact they've slowed down to well under the speed limit causing following traffic to do likewise.

If your braking heavily forces the traffic behind to do likewise then they must have been doing a similar speed to yours.
If you were going considerably faster, then you would have been way out in front, so your heavy braking would not have affected anyone behind.
Besides, in my experience, people do not brake heavily to well under the limit for cameras - unless they were surprised by them

Edited by Pete317 on Thursday 19th May 07:53

[Esceptico]

I suspect there are two factors at work here. Firstly people driving on the motorway only have their view of what's going on. The computer systems or operators can see the whole road. What may look unjustified from the viewpoint of one person in traffic is not necessarily the case when you view the road as a whole. So just because you can't see that traffic has backed up a few miles down the road it doesn't mean it isn't. Ironically if the system works properly then by slowing traffic the problem is solved and when you get to where the blockage was it has already disappeared ie slowing traffic did what it was supposed to do.

Of course no system is perfect and there are bound to be errors. This leads on to the second point: confirmation bias. People are looking out for the times that they think the system has screwed up and take notice or remember them (or over post a whinge on the Internet). They don't notice when the system works correctly. That gives people a false impression of the frequency of errors.

[V8 Fettler]

10 mph differential between adjacent signs would be a good improvement, NSL - 60 - 50 etc. 79mph to 49 mph in the short distance approaching a gantry places the (nearly) law-abiding driver at risk of a rear-ending.

[Landshark]

Beggarall said:

More muppetry last night on the M25

2. J10- J11 "incident" 60 then 50 then 60 plus inside lane "X" - this is camera alley with cameras on most of the gantries. No incident seen.

J10 -J11 is definitely not camera alley. There is one camera, and up till last week it hasn't been active yet.


As for making a complaint then it should be directed towards Highways England.

[anonymous-user]

Landshark said:

Beggarall said:

More muppetry last night on the M25

2. J10- J11 "incident" 60 then 50 then 60 plus inside lane "X" - this is camera alley with cameras on most of the gantries. No incident seen.

J10 -J11 is definitely not camera alley. There is one camera, and up till last week it hasn't been active yet.


As for making a complaint then it should be directed towards Highways England.

Here to help

https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/highwa...


http://www.highways.gov.uk/about-us/contact-us/?hc...

[rxe]

Esceptico said:

I suspect there are two factors at work here. Firstly people driving on the motorway only have their view of what's going on. The computer systems or operators can see the whole road. What may look unjustified from the viewpoint of one person in traffic is not necessarily the case when you view the road as a whole. So just because you can't see that traffic has backed up a few miles down the road it doesn't mean it isn't. Ironically if the system works properly then by slowing traffic the problem is solved and when you get to where the blockage was it has already disappeared ie slowing traffic did what it was supposed to do.

Of course no system is perfect and there are bound to be errors. This leads on to the second point: confirmation bias. People are looking out for the times that they think the system has screwed up and take notice or remember them (or over post a whinge on the Internet). They don't notice when the system works correctly. That gives people a false impression of the frequency of errors.

My particular "incident" was allegedly a queue that persisted for three consecutive gantries then reverted to NSL. Nothing there, no evidence of a queue there, no increased density of traffic to suggest a queue had been there. Nothing on Waze, for at least an hour before I passed this section. Just a false positive.

Solution is actually pretty simple - you have a bunch of detectors that are generating events. Until those events correlate with real conditions more than 90% of the time, then the Operators should be in the loop before the boards are switched on. Otherwise drivers (confirmation bias or not) will simply not believe what they see.

[roofer]

rxe said:

My particular "incident" was allegedly a queue that persisted for three consecutive gantries then reverted to NSL. Nothing there, no evidence of a queue there, no increased density of traffic to suggest a queue had been there. Nothing on Waze, for at least an hour before I passed this section. Just a false positive.

Solution is actually pretty simple - you have a bunch of detectors that are generating events. Until those events correlate with real conditions more than 90% of the time, then the Operators should be in the loop before the boards are switched on. Otherwise drivers (confirmation bias or not) will simply not believe what they see.

Correct, had 3 separate incidents today, not one of them was factual. The A1 slip for example always clears by 9.30, but you can guarantee the signs from the previous junction just befor the camera will stay on till 10.00-10.30 ...