Jury service question.
Discussion
I was part of the defence team for one of the Guinness defendents, about 200 people were called for jury selection. The judge was very helpful in allowing people who would be badly affected by 18 months on a jury and would excuse them. We ended up with mostly housewives and retired people.
About a year after the trial collapsed (we got the only acquital) I bumped into the jury forewoman in a pub in the country. having spent 18 months sitting opposite people you cannot communicate with you can only pigeonhole them by how they dress, what newspaper they carry etc.
It was fascinating hearing from her what their impression had been, they felt slightly cheated that it hadn't gone all the way to verdict but seemed to have a grasp of most of the issues.
The real skill of Counsel is putting things in Enid Blyton terms that will be easily understood by anyone; also in rebutting prosecution points without making things overly complex. The jury lady said they got very fed up with being booted out while we were arguing points of law.
In the first set of Guinness trials one of the jurors got arrested at lunchtime for shoplifting
About a year after the trial collapsed (we got the only acquital) I bumped into the jury forewoman in a pub in the country. having spent 18 months sitting opposite people you cannot communicate with you can only pigeonhole them by how they dress, what newspaper they carry etc.
It was fascinating hearing from her what their impression had been, they felt slightly cheated that it hadn't gone all the way to verdict but seemed to have a grasp of most of the issues.
The real skill of Counsel is putting things in Enid Blyton terms that will be easily understood by anyone; also in rebutting prosecution points without making things overly complex. The jury lady said they got very fed up with being booted out while we were arguing points of law.
In the first set of Guinness trials one of the jurors got arrested at lunchtime for shoplifting
As far as I am aware, if it is likely to be a long case the judge will ask in advance if any juror has reason(s) why they cannot sit on the case, and acceptable reason(s) will result in that juror being dismissed from the case (but they may then have to sit on a shorter case). I agree that taking notes can distract you from what is being said, but I have found that most jurors do take at least some notes. Jurors can pass notes to the judge (via the court clerk) e.g. if they do not understand something – either during the proceedings or during deliberations afterwards - but you don’t want it to appear that you haven’t been paying attention. I have been called 3 times in the last 20 years and would be interested to know if anyone beat that.
98elise said:
vanordinaire said:
Does anyone know what the odds of being called for jury service at some time are? I'm in my fifties and none of my immediate friends or family have ever been called so it can't be very common.
Same here.I hope i never get called as I'm self employed so would lose my income. A long case would destroy me financially.
Whilst I would like to do it at some point in my life, doing the job that I do now; doing jury service would hit me massively financially so I wouldn't want to do it.
Old Merc said:
I`m 69 only been called once in my life and got out of it.At the time I had a car repair business,just me and one employee.If I had got stuck in court for weeks on end I would have been out of business.
Now that I`m retired I would love the opportunity as it would give me something interesting to do.Trouble is my hearing is wrecked,I wear two hearing aids and would find it impossible to follow the proceedings.No doubt that would mean I could be excused.
One in six of the adult population has some sort of hearing problem.Do court officials make sure that all jury members have good hearing? or are the places where the jury sit equipped with loop systems,head phones or whatever?
What with the surroundings,different people speaking different accents,lawyers barking into their paperwork,nervous witnesses mumbling quietly,how does everyone no matter how good their hearing,follow the proceedings word for word?
It's worth noting that the Courts are setup to cater to people with hearing problems - after all everyone who will be speaking will be recorded, and this can be fed back into a loop system for your hearing aids to pickup - assuming they are compatible?Now that I`m retired I would love the opportunity as it would give me something interesting to do.Trouble is my hearing is wrecked,I wear two hearing aids and would find it impossible to follow the proceedings.No doubt that would mean I could be excused.
One in six of the adult population has some sort of hearing problem.Do court officials make sure that all jury members have good hearing? or are the places where the jury sit equipped with loop systems,head phones or whatever?
What with the surroundings,different people speaking different accents,lawyers barking into their paperwork,nervous witnesses mumbling quietly,how does everyone no matter how good their hearing,follow the proceedings word for word?
In my line of work there is a strong possibility of being called as a witness to cases I'm involved with, unfortunately all of them have either plead guilty or the charges dropped etc so I havem't had the opportunity to be part of a court hearing.
I've never been called for Jury either and I'm 28 but would love too, I studied law at college and visited courts in the public gallery's and thoroughly enjoyed it.
I suppose it's a shame that some people don't put in a good effort to understand cases as the impact of their decision is life changing (some thing I have to consider in my work) but I can understand that a long trial would have a serious affect on many jurors jobs.
I've never been called for Jury either and I'm 28 but would love too, I studied law at college and visited courts in the public gallery's and thoroughly enjoyed it.
I suppose it's a shame that some people don't put in a good effort to understand cases as the impact of their decision is life changing (some thing I have to consider in my work) but I can understand that a long trial would have a serious affect on many jurors jobs.
Cyberprog said:
It's worth noting that the Courts are setup to cater to people with hearing problems - after all everyone who will be speaking will be recorded, and this can be fed back into a loop system for your hearing aids to pickup - assuming they are compatible?
Loop systems are brilliant for us aid users,WHEN THEY ARE WORKING PROPERLY!! I could go on and on about problems with loop systems.All public buildings must have them by law.A few years back I was called as a witness at my sister's inquest,a very emotional experience for me.The F!!!!! loop system was not switched on.I mentioned it to an official but nothing they did made it work.Very frustrating for me.
Old Merc said:
Loop systems are brilliant for us aid users,WHEN THEY ARE WORKING PROPERLY!! I could go on and on about problems with loop systems.All public buildings must have them by law.
A few years back I was called as a witness at my sister's inquest,a very emotional experience for me.The F!!!!! loop system was not switched on.I mentioned it to an official but nothing they did made it work.Very frustrating for me.
A few years back I was called as a witness at my sister's inquest,a very emotional experience for me.The F!!!!! loop system was not switched on.I mentioned it to an official but nothing they did made it work.Very frustrating for me.
Or is that old hearing aids?
Odds of getting selected for jury service:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03s4074?intc_type...
It's an audio clip from a radio 4 programme, manly about Scotland but they do mention England and Wales towards the end.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03s4074?intc_type...
It's an audio clip from a radio 4 programme, manly about Scotland but they do mention England and Wales towards the end.
Shaw Tarse said:
Or is that old hearing aids?
I hope your not taking this piss? all hearing aid users no what they are doing,almost all have up to date aids.Its the owners of Public buildings,theatres,cinemas etc who have all this high tech loop system installed because they have to by law.Then nobody knows how to use it.Mention it to a manager bod and he just goes blank,"whats a loop".
I had a call up to Jury service...utter pants being self employed....was "excused" the first time.
Second time it came up, had to go, lost out big time on earnings, i forget what the daily rate was, but way under what i could earn in a day.
I ended up working in the evenings where I could to make up my money and not letting my customers down.(and all weekend)
It is very unfair. They should allow you to submit your last 3 months of income (at the very least) and allow you an "average" of that period. It is OK for some people as if they are "employed" many employers will continue paying them.
For some "Employed" people it is an easy 2 weeks off work
turn up at 0900...ish....drink coffee...until 1000ish....about 15 are called out......jury selected from those there, excuses read out some discharged to drink more coffee......defendant fails to turn up, or CPS decides in has no case/evidence to offer....everyone down to the jury room...drink more coffee...stood down until afternoon...repeat mornings cock ups...sent home early....to return the next day for similar!
When eventually a trial starts it's a relief!....until judge claims that victim is a bad liar and after 2 days throws case out, or other pants things are thrown in....the system is utter shambles, and unfair to the jury, god knows what it must have been like for the Hillsborough lot (very bad for the friends and family of the 96 after so long and a 2 year trial.)
None of the 3 cases I sat in went as far as deliberating......what did i learn from it?
get a big bladder.....you drink a shed load of tea/coffee
Try to avoid eye balling the low lifes hanging around the entrances.....
walk away from the court checking you are not being followed by same low life that was eye balling you from public gallery
get a decent book to read!
Don't drink too much tea/coffee!
hope that if you have to attend court as a jury member that you never have to rely on many of the jury mentioned in other posts listening to evidence against you one day!
Second time it came up, had to go, lost out big time on earnings, i forget what the daily rate was, but way under what i could earn in a day.
I ended up working in the evenings where I could to make up my money and not letting my customers down.(and all weekend)
It is very unfair. They should allow you to submit your last 3 months of income (at the very least) and allow you an "average" of that period. It is OK for some people as if they are "employed" many employers will continue paying them.
For some "Employed" people it is an easy 2 weeks off work
turn up at 0900...ish....drink coffee...until 1000ish....about 15 are called out......jury selected from those there, excuses read out some discharged to drink more coffee......defendant fails to turn up, or CPS decides in has no case/evidence to offer....everyone down to the jury room...drink more coffee...stood down until afternoon...repeat mornings cock ups...sent home early....to return the next day for similar!
When eventually a trial starts it's a relief!....until judge claims that victim is a bad liar and after 2 days throws case out, or other pants things are thrown in....the system is utter shambles, and unfair to the jury, god knows what it must have been like for the Hillsborough lot (very bad for the friends and family of the 96 after so long and a 2 year trial.)
None of the 3 cases I sat in went as far as deliberating......what did i learn from it?
get a big bladder.....you drink a shed load of tea/coffee
Try to avoid eye balling the low lifes hanging around the entrances.....
walk away from the court checking you are not being followed by same low life that was eye balling you from public gallery
get a decent book to read!
Don't drink too much tea/coffee!
hope that if you have to attend court as a jury member that you never have to rely on many of the jury mentioned in other posts listening to evidence against you one day!
My time on jury duty was as frustrating as it was interesting. I did overall consider it to be a worthwhile experience and I was happy to be able to serve.
One case involved an assault on a shop keeper, caught on video in excellent quality the defendants clearly identifiable as they
delivered an unprovoked kicking. They pleaded not guilty but changed their plea once the video was shown in court. A complete waste of time and tax payer funds. They must have seen or been made aware of the video evidence beforehand?
Another case was an assault with us beginning our deliberation last thing on a Friday afternoon. The number of jurors that wanted to make a very quick decision so as to get away early and crack on with their weekend was shocking. I hope they receive similar consideration should they ever have their future hanging in the balance.
The last case was hugely frustrating. The defendant was clearly lying and as confirmed by information given after the verdict this wasn't his first or even his second violent offence.
Unfortunately those giving evidence against him had laid it on so thick in order to stick it to the defendant that we had to disregard their evidence and ultimately let a blatantly guilty bag of s
te walk free.
One case involved an assault on a shop keeper, caught on video in excellent quality the defendants clearly identifiable as they
delivered an unprovoked kicking. They pleaded not guilty but changed their plea once the video was shown in court. A complete waste of time and tax payer funds. They must have seen or been made aware of the video evidence beforehand?
Another case was an assault with us beginning our deliberation last thing on a Friday afternoon. The number of jurors that wanted to make a very quick decision so as to get away early and crack on with their weekend was shocking. I hope they receive similar consideration should they ever have their future hanging in the balance.
The last case was hugely frustrating. The defendant was clearly lying and as confirmed by information given after the verdict this wasn't his first or even his second violent offence.
Unfortunately those giving evidence against him had laid it on so thick in order to stick it to the defendant that we had to disregard their evidence and ultimately let a blatantly guilty bag of s
te walk free.My former employer (in the UK) paid your usual salary less what the state paid you for being on jury service. I think that they even got you to direct the court payment to the company so you just got paid as per normal. I don't remember anyone being on jury service for more than a couple of weeks.
There must be an HR bod from a reasonably big UK company on here - interesting to see what their take on a long trial would be?
There must be an HR bod from a reasonably big UK company on here - interesting to see what their take on a long trial would be?
cymtriks said:
With long trials there must be a significant risk that jurors will drop out:
A previous association with someone involved turns up
I did 3 months back in 2013. 6 defendants and of course 6 Barristers + prosecution.A previous association with someone involved turns up
Before the jury was selected, 20 of us were called to the courtroom. The defendants were asked if they recognised any of us/knew any names. The case had c150 witnesses and all the names along with employer names, area they lived in were read out and if any of us knew anyone had to speak up.
And then, the judge gave a brief over view of the case so people could understand if they'd find the subject matter upsetting in anyway. 8 weeks was estimated but this went to 12.5.
Eventually, 5 people left the room and three were kept 'in reserve' should someone drop out - someone did after about 3 days so another stepped in. Not sure what would have happened 6 weeks in as the evidence was vast. By the end of the trial we each had 2.5 lever arch files full of evidence along with our own notes.
And as for sitting around, the only sitting around I remember was when the jury had to leave the courtroom for a legal argument to take place between a Barrister and Judge. That aside, we started at 9am prompt and rarely finished before 4pm, I remember staying until gone 5 several days.
Oh, and 3 guilty, 3 innocent and I got 10 year exemption from serving again.
dobly said:
My former employer (in the UK) paid your usual salary less what the state paid you for being on jury service. I think that they even got you to direct the court payment to the company so you just got paid as per normal. I don't remember anyone being on jury service for more than a couple of weeks.
There must be an HR bod from a reasonably big UK company on here - interesting to see what their take on a long trial would be?
Just checked our policy and it's very similar:There must be an HR bod from a reasonably big UK company on here - interesting to see what their take on a long trial would be?
"You may retain any travelling or subsistence allowance paid to you by the Clerk to the Court, but you will be required to notify the Company of all amounts received as compensation for loss of pay. Evidence of the amount of compensation received must be given to the payroll department and the appropriate amount will be deducted from your gross pay on the next available pay day."
Jury service is great. Two weeks out of work and my employer paid my salary in full, plus we were allowed to claim mileage/travel expenses so actually ended up quids in.
However, you quickly get a handle on how moronic some people can be. The sort of people who think someone "looks guilty" and have a "no smoke without fire" mentality. It absolutely destroys the discussions when you're trying to reach a verdict.
In summary, too many Sun readers.
However, you quickly get a handle on how moronic some people can be. The sort of people who think someone "looks guilty" and have a "no smoke without fire" mentality. It absolutely destroys the discussions when you're trying to reach a verdict.
In summary, too many Sun readers.
Edited by Jefferson Steelflex on Thursday 28th April 13:10
I've only done jury duty once and it made me never want to get trialed by jury.
About a quarter of the jury immediately assumed the defendant was guilty as he was Polish. I had the misfortune of being sat next to a chain smoker, who as well as stinking would sit and fidget like a four year old constantly once he had been sitting for longer than five minutes as he was "gasping for a fag". He also keep trying to talk to me despite the Judge telling him to be quiet multiple times. A couple of people tried to take notes but were accused of being 'swots' in the Jury room so stopped, it was like being back at school. When we were sent away to decide the verdict I was also shocked by about half the jurors just wanting a quick decision so they could go home. One guy even put his coat on and stood next to the door. The whole case was a bit of a joke, at one point the defense and prosecution were arguing about how many bottles of Vodka they defendant had drunk for about twenty minutes, thankfully the judge stepped in and got them both to agree on the fact that he was very drunk. All the people involved in the case were Polish and the defense and prosecution kept mixing their names up.
I can also see why courts have such a backlog, we were told to be there for nine each morning but normally didn't start till just before ten. Lunch was at least an hour each day, after about two o'clock once the piece of evidence being given was complete the Judge would say he thought it was a bit late to hear anymore evidence and so we would be sent home.
My employer at the time was really good and they paid me as normal so I didn't loose out money wise, as I stayed about half an hour by car from the court I was also able to claim travel expenses.
About a quarter of the jury immediately assumed the defendant was guilty as he was Polish. I had the misfortune of being sat next to a chain smoker, who as well as stinking would sit and fidget like a four year old constantly once he had been sitting for longer than five minutes as he was "gasping for a fag". He also keep trying to talk to me despite the Judge telling him to be quiet multiple times. A couple of people tried to take notes but were accused of being 'swots' in the Jury room so stopped, it was like being back at school. When we were sent away to decide the verdict I was also shocked by about half the jurors just wanting a quick decision so they could go home. One guy even put his coat on and stood next to the door. The whole case was a bit of a joke, at one point the defense and prosecution were arguing about how many bottles of Vodka they defendant had drunk for about twenty minutes, thankfully the judge stepped in and got them both to agree on the fact that he was very drunk. All the people involved in the case were Polish and the defense and prosecution kept mixing their names up.
I can also see why courts have such a backlog, we were told to be there for nine each morning but normally didn't start till just before ten. Lunch was at least an hour each day, after about two o'clock once the piece of evidence being given was complete the Judge would say he thought it was a bit late to hear anymore evidence and so we would be sent home.
My employer at the time was really good and they paid me as normal so I didn't loose out money wise, as I stayed about half an hour by car from the court I was also able to claim travel expenses.
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