Potential issue with car trader/dealer - advice welcomed

[northwest monkey]

Cheers for all your advice chaps. Although I've had the car just over 30 days (picked up the car on the 19th March), I did report the fault to him less than a week after buying it.

My 2 main issues are (a) there is no way he didn't know it had a fault when he sold it, and (b) I haven't seen sight of any warranty whatsoever (he's repeatedly ignored my request for the warranty company details) & this was one of the reasons I bought from a trader rather than private.

He trades from home so doesn't particularly have a reputation to protect (as opposed to someone with premises), so I'm guessing I have no option but to open a 6-pack of legal whoopass on him. Being honest, I'm not expecting much joy, but if I can cause someone a lot of earache & hassle then I will.

I'd be happy with the car being repaired - I'm not just looking to take the car back. Other than the engine issue, I love the car so I'm definitely not suffering from a case of buyers remorse (other than it being slightly fked).

Any suggestions or links as to the next step?

[northwest monkey]

On the advert for mine, it says "Supplied with full 12 months Gold warranty".

If I google "gold warranty" it comes up with a company called Auto Protect & "gold" is one of their cover levels.

Other than Auto Trader, he doesn't have a website.

[northwest monkey]

The Spruce goose said:

Blue Oval84 said:

(oddly, just as he starts another ltd company) and watch your money disappear.

The directors cannot deliberately take any actions that would cause the company's debts to increase or go unpaid. So even if he winds up can still sue him, else scammers would just set up ltd companies and go bust, devolved of debt responsibility.

That's very interesting - I didn't know that. Might be worth paying for a rebuild & then going after him if that's the case.

Cheers

[northwest monkey]

hornetrider said:

northwest monkey said:

That's very interesting - I didn't know that. Might be worth paying for a rebuild & then going after him if that's the case.

Cheers

Steady on. You have to give him the opportunity to repair. Get stuff in writing.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not booking anything in!

I'm going to do the notice letter & then the small claims if that doesn't work to try & get the car sorted (or returned) but it's good to know there are options.

[northwest monkey]

Andyjc86 said:

Yep, it's all on the dealer. Personally I would be pushing to reject the car under the new SOG rules.

Is there a specific thing (e.g. the Sale of Goods Act 2013 or whatever) I can refer to in a letter?

I'm doing a "letter before action" today and am going to refer to the fact that (a) I haven't received any warranty information despite the car being advertised as "12 months warranty included", (b) the car was sold with an existing fault, (c) the dealer suggested I took it to a local garage for them to look at.

I'm going to offer 2 solutions:-

(a) Pay for a engine rebuild / get it rebuilt at an independent garage (estimated cost £2500)

or

(b) Buy the car back for the £7700 I paid for it.

I'm going to address the letter to his partner as she is the director of the company & effectively he is an employee. Also, she might be less thrilled about the prospects of going to court.

Is there anything I've missed / anything I should or shouldn't say?

[northwest monkey]

4rephill said:

If you're taking the company to court then you should be dealing with his partner rather than the than the guy who sold you the car as technically he's just "working for the company" and doesn't own it.

Yep - we're going after his missus as it's "her" company & not his (as per Companies House).

[northwest monkey]

Old Merc said:

And keep us regularly updated.Do not give up,screw the b!!!! ,you have over £7K stuck in the driveway getting wet.
Good luck mate.

No worries - I can't stand the "hit and run" threads that never get closed either.

[northwest monkey]

REALIST123 said:

northwest monkey said:

4rephill said:

If you're taking the company to court then you should be dealing with his partner rather than the than the guy who sold you the car as technically he's just "working for the company" and doesn't own it.

Yep - we're going after his missus as it's "her" company & not his (as per Companies House).

If it's Limited you can't go after his 'missus' unless you're saying she's committed some crime? You're 'going after' the Company.

I would suggest you take proper advice, it's in fairly short supply here.

His Mrs is the name I'm sending the letter to as in "Mrs Smith, Director, Car Sales Company Ltd". The fact I bought it from her bloke is irrelevant - I'm treating him as an employee of her company.

[northwest monkey]

Out of interest, if I had to sell the car (we're going to France in August and I'm not going in this car with it's current problem) and buy another, could I go after him for my losses?

E.g. if I traded it in / sold it at auction and got £6k for it, could I go after them for my losses - i.e. I bought a car with a working engine for £7,750 and had to take £6,000 for it with a broken engine then I'd be £1750 down through no fault of my own.

[northwest monkey]

JM said:

How do you know who owns the company?

Just because the wife is listed as a director it doesn't mean she owns any shares.


But, yes the OP should address the wife as director of the company in his letter.

She's the only person listed at Companies House for the company so the letter is going to her.

[northwest monkey]

Ok, an update...

I sent a "letter before action" to the blokes Missus on Tuesday, basically detailing every conversation we've had (via text and voice) and saying the problem I initially reported (that being low oil pressure and a noisy engine) was still there and getting worse. I offered him 3 alternatives - (a) fix the faults at his expense and provide me with the 12 months warranty as advertised, (b) take the car back and refund me the £7,750, or refund me the difference between the Glass's guide p/ex value & what I paid (so £1900) and I'll find a new car.

He phoned me this morning, sounding incredibly annoyed, and basically said that because I got the car for a good price I didn't get a warranty (although I have texts from him saying he's spoken to the warranty company & they wont pay for a new engine...) and I should have taken the car back to his mechanic. I mentioned to him that he suggested I took it somewhere local rather than drive it 50 miles but he chose to ignore this. He also said that as I didn't tell him the alarm was faulty on my car (I did tell him) and that the door needed adjusting (I did tell him) that he doesn't have to offer a warranty.

He claims to have spoken to his solicitor & he's told him not to bother responding in a letter & that I should just take him to court.

So, do I need to wait the 30 days before doing the MCOL?

[northwest monkey]

Red Devil said:

northwest monkey said:

He phoned me this morning, sounding incredibly annoyed, and basically said that because I got the car for a good price I didn't get a warranty...

So he is now directly contradicting what the advert said. I hope you recorded that conversation.

Sadly, I didn't record it and I'm not sure even if that would be admissible. I actually didn't get the car "for a good price". I thought the car was advertised at a fair price, but rather than knock cash off, I asked him to get a new MOT (it only had 3 months left), get the rear brake pads done (I-drive was saying they needed doing) and replace a front tyre - he agreed. He's claiming the car was advertised as "warranty available" which is bks. The advert said (word for word) - "Supplied with full 12 months Gold warranty".

Red Devil said:

If/when you get judgement you need to find out whether there is any likelihood of the company being able to pay. I suspect not because he sounds like a proper fly-by-night chancer. However you could cause the pair of them maximum hassle/embarrassment by immediately applying for his wife (as the company's responsible officer) to be brought to court for questioning - https://www.moneyclaimsuk.co.uk/PDFForms/N316A.pdf

That's the revenge I would take if I was likely to end up considerably out of pocket because some scrote trader thought he could get away with shafting me.

I've got no problem whatsoever doing that - in fact I'd positively enjoy it. I think he thinks I'm going to go away and unfortunately for him, I'm not. Even more unfortunately for him, Mrs Monkey is far worse than me. The idea if him speaking to his solicitor this morning & his solicitor advising him not to bother responding but to just phone me up is laughable. I'm not even remotely a solicitor, but I've dealt with enough of them to know they like to put everything in writing.

The situation for me at the moment is slightly more problematic. I'm self employed, and need a car to be able to get me about & I need that car to be reliable. As it stands, I'm not convinced the engine in the car is going to last much longer so I'm now in a position where I've probably got to get rid of it.

The options for rebuilding this engine are anywhere from £1500 (absolute minimum) to £3000 depending on what needs doing & the car off the road for 3 weeks which is no good. The other option is a second hand engine for under £2000, which is a gamble as to whether or not it is a good one - this would mean the car being off the road for a week which isn't ideal but I could cope with it if I had to.

Either way, it would still mean coughing up a lot of money which being honest I'd rather not be paying and although I could get the money together if I really had to, being honest it wouldn't be easy and would impact on other plans. It would be slightly different if I'd owned the car 2 years, but after less than 2 months...

[northwest monkey]

Roo said:

Any faults on the part exchange are his problem, not yours.

He's the expert and didn't inspect/appraise it properly.

I did mention that to him on the phone today & I also reminded him I told him about the door and the alarm when we went to see his car - there was no point me trying to hide it as it was pretty obvious there was an issue (the drivers door needed adjusting and the alarm siren went off at random when you turned the alarm off).

[northwest monkey]

Hi all - so do I need to wait at least 14 days before starting proceedings or not?

[northwest monkey]

Red Devil said:

northwest monkey said:

Sadly, I didn't record it and I'm not sure even if that would be admissible.

If you didn't mention it and consent wasn't given probably not, but AFAIK there is nothing to stop you making a transcript. "Those were your exact words chum: I wrote them down." Unfortunately that possible option has gone out the window.

Ok, fair enough. Although I can't remember word for word what he said, I can remember what he said (if you get my drift).

Red Devil said:

northwest monkey said:

Roo said:

Any faults on the part exchange are his problem, not yours.

He's the expert and didn't inspect/appraise it properly.

I did mention that to him on the phone today & I also reminded him I told him about the door and the alarm when we went to see his car - there was no point me trying to hide it as it was pretty obvious there was an issue (the drivers door needed adjusting and the alarm siren went off at random when you turned the alarm off).

The time has long passed for telephone calls. If you're contemplating proceedings ALL communication from you should be in writing. You need an audit trail. If he fails to respond the judge will take that into consideration.

Completely agree. I didn't phone him - he called me.

Red Devil said:

northwest monkey said:

Hi all - so do I need to wait at least 14 days before starting proceedings or not?

Have you issued a LBA yet? If not, you'll be shooting yourself in the foot - https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/going-t...

Yes I have. I sent him (or rather his Mrs) the LBA, detailing everything that had happened. In it, I gave them 14 days to respond, and if they didn't (or didn't respond satisfactorily) then I'd begin legal proceedings. He phoned up saying he'd read the letter, spoken to his solicitor and that his solicitor had advised him to phone me up and tell me I haven't got a leg to stand on. Basically, a load of crap.

I haven't had a response from her though, so arguably she could say she'd never seen the letter (he could have hidden it from her) so I'm guessing that I still have to give them the time to respond?

[northwest monkey]

Brilliant - cheers. I must admit, I did laugh at him when he said "my solicitor has told me to not bother writing back & just give you a call as he says you haven't got a leg to stand on".

I think he thinks we're just going to back down on this & he's sorely mistaken. There is no way I'm having someone take the piss that much & think they can get away with it. To be honest, I thought the days of these sort of clowns were long gone. Shows how stupid you can be...

[northwest monkey]

Right, an update - bit long-winded but sometimes life sucks.

Having decided there was no way I was paying up to £3k to fix the car, and not being prepared to wait & see what may happen in a court, I've sold the car. I took it to a main dealer that had a car I liked, they checked my car out & offered me £5200 for it. A bit of wriggling got it up to £5500, a bit of cash from me and I'm a very happy owner of a new car (not a BMW) with a proper 2-year warranty.

Which basically made my original letter redundant as in it I had offered them 3 choices - repair the car, take the car back for a refund, or give me the difference between what I paid and what the car was worth. This was the letter that prompted the angry "take me to court then" phone call.

So I wrote them another letter this week, picking holes in a lot of things that had been claimed & telling them I wanted £2,250 which was the difference between what I paid for the car, and what I'd sold it for. I have given them 14 days before I begin court proceedings. I also said I didn't want to talk to anyone over the phone & to put everything in writing.

Fast forward to today, and I receive a letter...

It's pretty much a load of bks but with an interesting end.

First of all he's admitted the car was advertised for £7,750 with 12 months warranty. He's confirmed I traded my car in & that he offered me £3,800 for it & he agreed to getting a new MOT and replacing the rear brake pads on the new car.

Then he gets all odd. He says I left £200 deposit (I didn't - I left £100), and paid him £3,300 into his bank (I didn't - I paid him £3,500 cash when I collected the new car), and that he gave me £3,600 for my car (so I'm guessing he's fiddling the books). He also says these conditions were "clearly stated without warranty as you didn't pay the full amount my car" (sic).

He also claims he has a copy of the receipt that was given to me stating "no warranty given or implied in any way as in total you paid the sum of £7,100". Interesting that, as I was never given a receipt - the car dealer I've bought a replacement from I got a receipt which both me & the dealer signed twice...

He then says Gold warranty costs £250 so under no circumstances was he ever going to give a warranty with the amount I paid.

Next, he claims he asked me several times to return the car to him once I told him about the fault. He's effectively saying the garage I took it to could have tampered with it causing the fault. He seems to be overlooking the reason I took it to a garage in the first place was because it had a fault.

To sum up, he's said "as you can appreciate we feel as a company we are no longer liable as somebody else has tampered with it, however as a good will gesture we will give £500 to close this matter".

The letter is unsigned, but in his partners name (she's the director).

I have all the copies of texts where he claims (twice) to have spoken to the warranty company, I also have the text where he told me to take it to a specialist. I can get something from the engine place confirming the engine needs a rebuild.

My initial thoughts are to tell them to FRO for the £500. If they weren't in the wrong and were confident they weren't, then why would they offer me £500?

Thoughts, advice, dirty jokes welcome.

[northwest monkey]

Fair question. I gave them the keys & they had a good look over it (including a mechanic). I didn't mention anything, but nor did I hide anything.

[northwest monkey]

POORCARDEALER said:

Im going out to buy popcorn....

Pfft. Personally, I prefer Maltesers - popcorn is very overrated.

As soon as the car was started, you could hear the noise - not just that, you could feel it through the accelerator pedal - I didn't need to hide anything!

They did mention it made a noise, but as it was going to go to auction (they don't retail anything over 100k) they weren't overly interested. The condition of the car other than the engine was excellent.

A st trick would have been to sell it privately for more money (probably would have got well over £7k) but there's no way I'd do that.

[northwest monkey]

TankRizzo said:

Pretty poor form to kick it on without saying anything, tbh.

Maybe, maybe not, but answer me this.

What would you have done?