Employer claiming overtaken annual leave

[JZZ30]

Situation as follows: -

Job started 2012. Standard holiday entitlement of 23 days. 24.5 days agreed at start due to previous service. ('97-'04, 2008, 2011)

This had increased to 27 days for 2015/16. All 27 days holiday requested and authorised.
Notice given (4weeks) to finish 28th February.

Before notice given 24 days had been taken. 3 were due in March.

Pulled into office by manager and told 4 days too many holidays taken. Need paid back. Nothing agreed, nothing signed, end of conversation.

Final pay should have been unsociable hours. This was withheld (600 quid net). Queried, told holidays should only have been 24 as previous service didn't count & pro rata to notice being handed in at end January would be 20 days due.

Further letter received asking for another 300 quid due to overpayment.

What is the legal position on just not paying wages without agreement?
Do the previous years holidays set precedent?
That's the biggest worry as it has implications in new post.

[1Addicted]

I can't help, but it sounds like you just found out that you're 'just' another number .

[Drumroll]

I may have misunderstood what you mean but if you change job then generally you get what the new company is offering. Some companies holiday are based on a calendar year, some on the financial year and some on the academic year. So from my understanding you may loose out or gain depending on what holiday calendar, they work too. Not what entitlement you had at your last employer.

[JZZ30]

Same overall employer, different district.
Employer is NHS. Scotland if it makes a difference.

[RedWhiteMonkey]

You say that nothing was agreed and nothing was signed, i.e. they did not agree to waive any overtaken leave. You will have had a contract with them that set out your annual leave, it is easy to work out what your entitlement was up when you left. If you used more than that then you owe them.

[JZZ30]

Yeah OK, RTFM!
Contract says 23 days basic rising after 5 years to 24.5 days and again after 10 years to 27.

Since notice given, they seem to have decided previous service does not count. Nothing in contract about continuous or broken service.

Edit. I'll dig out the contract again, it complicated a bit in that it refers to holiday entitlement for a standard 5 day week. The above is based on 3 long (12.5 hr) days a week.

Edited by JZZ30 on Wednesday 27th April 08:02

[Squishey]

Are you a member of a union?

[ozzuk]

Did you confirm continuation of service when you changed roles? I ask because holiday would be the least of my concerns - years of service can have big impact on pension.

It is 'normal' practice to maintain years of service but it isn't a given - especially when transferred between company divisions. I work for a multi-national, one offer was made to move divisions and it includes pensionable service, the second time they didn't offer it and actually wanted me to resign and start again with new area. Actually thinking back the biggest impact was they changed pensions and I'd have lost my final salary scheme.

[snobetter]

In my experience of the NHS, a break in service results in a drop back to the bottom of the pay scale and a restart of the holiday entitlement as well, unless, under extenuating circumstances,i.e. can't fill the post any other way, a employee can negotiate starting higher in the pay band and holiday allowance. For us this would have to be approved by higher management, HR, recruitment and management accountant for the department. In short, a long paper trail. If your situation happened here, either the manager has gone off the books to fiddle giving you an extra couple of days for the last few years, or he did it properly and there would be a record.
Proving what you've taken previously might not help without proof that you were entitled to it. HR are not your friends.
Let me know if there's anything more useful I can help with.

[snobetter]

ozzuk said:

Did you confirm continuation of service when you changed roles? I ask because holiday would be the least of my concerns - years of service can have big impact on pension.

It is 'normal' practice to maintain years of service but it isn't a given - especially when transferred between company divisions. I work for a multi-national, one offer was made to move divisions and it includes pensionable service, the second time they didn't offer it and actually wanted me to resign and start again with new area. Actually thinking back the biggest impact was they changed pensions and I'd have lost my final salary scheme.

Unless you transfer the pension out on leaving it's frozen and restarted when you rejoin.

edit - in my experience of NHS, check your own.

[4rephill]

snobetter said:

In my experience of the NHS, a break in service results in a drop back to the bottom of the pay scale and a restart of the holiday entitlement as well, unless, under extenuating circumstances,i.e. can't fill the post any other way, a employee can negotiate starting higher in the pay band and holiday allowance.....

According to section 12.4 of the NHS Terms and Conditions of Service Handbook: (From: http://www.nhsemployers.org/~/media/Employers/Docu... ) :

Section 12: Contractual continuity of service


Re-appointment of previous NHS employees

12.4:"On returning to NHS employment, a previous period or periods of NHS service will be counted towards the employee’s entitlement to annual leave."

[snobetter]

4rephill said:

snobetter said:

In my experience of the NHS, a break in service results in a drop back to the bottom of the pay scale and a restart of the holiday entitlement as well, unless, under extenuating circumstances,i.e. can't fill the post any other way, a employee can negotiate starting higher in the pay band and holiday allowance.....

According to section 12.4 of the NHS Terms and Conditions of Service Handbook: (From: http://www.nhsemployers.org/~/media/Employers/Docu... ) :

Section 12: Contractual continuity of service


Re-appointment of previous NHS employees

12.4:"On returning to NHS employment, a previous period or periods of NHS service will be counted towards the employee’s entitlement to annual leave."

There you go, I should look things up properly.

[rs990]

JZZ30 said:

Situation as follows: -

Job started 2012. Standard holiday entitlement of 23 days. 24.5 days agreed at start due to previous service. ('97-'04, 2008, 2011)

This had increased to 27 days for 2015/16. All 27 days holiday requested and authorised.
Notice given (4weeks) to finish 28th February.

Out of interest, do you have a contract with the NHS or a third party? It's been a while since I was there, but the standard entitlement in NHS Scotland was 27 days + 8 Public holidays, rising to 29+8 after 5 years and 33+8 after 10 years.

[BlueHave]

Your face no longer fits. If they were authorised by HR then I'd tell them to whistle for it.

My ultimate superior who thankfully I only encounter on only a few days a week could be described as an absolute arse in any line of work. A complete control freak doing pointless tasks that nobody else asks to be fulfilled. Zero personality.

He's the type of guy that if you did everything perfectly he would find something just to have a dig at your work.

[JZZ30]

snobetter said:

For us this would have to be approved by higher management, HR, recruitment and management accountant for the department. In short, a long paper trail. If your situation happened here, either the manager has gone off the books to fiddle giving you an extra couple of days for the last few years, or he did it properly and there would be a record.
Proving what you've taken previously might not help without proof that you were entitled to it. HR are not your friends.
Let me know if there's anything more useful I can help with.

Thanks for the reply.

This is my worry, that one managers 'discretion' may not hold tight. So, the previous granted and taken holidays may not set precedent, I was hoping for that angle to make it all a little easier.

4rephill said:

According to section 12.4 of the NHS Terms and Conditions of Service Handbook: (From: http://www.nhsemployers.org/~/media/Employers/Docu... ) :

Section 12: Contractual continuity of service


Re-appointment of previous NHS employees

12.4:"On returning to NHS employment, a previous period or periods of NHS service will be counted towards the employee’s entitlement to annual leave."

Again, Thanks. I'm off to have a read through that.

rs990 said:

Out of interest, do you have a contract with the NHS or a third party? It's been a while since I was there, but the standard entitlement in NHS Scotland was 27 days + 8 Public holidays, rising to 29+8 after 5 years and 33+8 after 10 years.

Sorry, not explained well. the days I'm talking about are based on a 3 long day week. It should work out roughly the same if converted to 5 day week.

BlueHave said:

Your face no longer fits. If they were authorised by HR then I'd tell them to whistle for it.

I should have said, It's a query on behalf of my other half - I'm a powerful company director and have no issues with holidays self employed and take whatever holidays I please, I just don't get paid!

The trouble with telling them to whistle is, they have already just taken a big chunk of it.

Also, there was a Union question - Yes, a member. Have never found them particularly useful thus far, but may need to approach them.

[snobetter]

Also, there was a Union question - Yes, a member. Have never found them particularly useful thus far, but may need to approach them.
[/quote]

Maybe get your OH to ask around regarding reps, some are good, some are not so, there's usually a few.

[oyster]

rs990 said:

JZZ30 said:

Situation as follows: -

Job started 2012. Standard holiday entitlement of 23 days. 24.5 days agreed at start due to previous service. ('97-'04, 2008, 2011)

This had increased to 27 days for 2015/16. All 27 days holiday requested and authorised.
Notice given (4weeks) to finish 28th February.

Out of interest, do you have a contract with the NHS or a third party? It's been a while since I was there, but the standard entitlement in NHS Scotland was 27 days + 8 Public holidays, rising to 29+8 after 5 years and 33+8 after 10 years.

33 days leave plus bank holidays????
Plus an average of 10 sick days.

So the NHS works a 4 days week?

No wonder they're up in arms about a 7-day NHS.

And no wonder it squanders more than £100bn a year and still wonders where the money goes.

[4rephill]

snobetter said:

JZZ30 said:

Also, there was a Union question - Yes, a member. Have never found them particularly useful thus far, but may need to approach them.

Maybe get your OH to ask around regarding reps, some are good, some are not so, there's usually a few.

+1

Good union reps want to make sure that the workers rights are not abused and to help sort out issues, misunderstanding and conflicts between employers and employees by ensuring that the correct procedures and terms and conditions are being applied and followed by both parties, especially when they get complicated, as seems to be the case here.

Bad union reps seem to just see the role as an opportunity to "stick it to the man", cause disharmony wherever possible and end up on a bit of a power trip, resulting in unions getting a bad name!

It's worth your other half asking around where they work to find out who would be the best rep to talk to.

In this situation, a good union rep should be the perfect person to get to the bottom of this as they should have a perfect understanding of the NHS terms and conditions of service handbook, and as to what applies in this case.

Your other half has paid to be a member of the union over the years and this is an opportunity to get something back for all that money paid in.



I hope you manage to get it all sorted amicably!

[bga]

snobetter said:

Proving what you've taken previously might not help without proof that you were entitled to it. HR are not your friends.

While HR are not your friends, they are there to ensure that the policy is followed. They fall out equally with managers and staff who have different interpretations of policy.

[Sheepshanks]

oyster said:

So the NHS works a 4 days week?

The person in question only works 3 days a week.

It's such a fantastic job that she's decided to leave.