Clipped mirror of stationary vehicle, didn't stop - points?

[grumpy52]

The classic is the guy that clipped a car and noticed that there were witnesses so he stopped and walked back to the car he stood and wrote a note and left it under the damaged cars wiper .
The note basically went like this .
Dear sir or madam ,I am sorry that I have damaged your car ,all the people now watching me think that I am leaving you my details, the fools .
Kind regards ?

[Veovis]

Raine Man said:

The police have got other things to deal with, rightly or wrongly you didn't stop but you obviously have had enough of a conscience to report it so I doubt they will be fussed at all.

Do they actually have discretion in things like that, or is it a case of I've made a statement acknowledging wrongdoing, so I'm getting a penalty?

[Flooble]

Veovis said:

Do they actually have discretion in things like that, or is it a case of I've made a statement acknowledging wrongdoing, so I'm getting a penalty?

First the disclaimer that I am neither lawyer nor police officer. But as you sound worried, better to have someone to reply to you I feel. With any luck someone else qualified will be along later.

Now, to get a penalty you would need to be found guilty of an offence, correct? There are only a limited number of offences for which a Fixed Penalty Notice could be issued in lieu of a proper prosecution:

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/road_traffic_of...

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/53/schedu...

I don't see "failing to stop" on that list and in any event, you have reported the accident which makes that offence moot. So for what do you think you will get a penalty? Careless driving? Driving without due care and attention? They aren't on the Fixed Penalty List either as far as I can see.

Therefore for you to pick up points as far as I can see someone would have to decide it was worth going to all the trouble of preparing a case against you - bearing in mind what I said about not being a lawyer, I don't see that your word alone is sufficient. You could have been mistaken. Perhaps what you thought was a parked vehicle actually pulled out on you. Perhaps you didn't make contact after all and it was just a stone that made a noise. Don't forget the burden of proof is "beyond reasonable doubt". You made the report, but weren't under caution at the time, is that even admissible? Again, I'm not a lawyer, so maybe it is, but it all just seems like far too much effort for an over-stretched police force to go to.

[twoblacklines]

Why would it matter? These mirrors are designed so if you clip them they fold in. What's the problem?

I had a 18 year old looking girl in a bright yellow Ka clip my mirror in my old A3, she just drove off, not a care in the world. The mirror did what it was designed to do and I had no care in the world either.

The other day I did it to someone by accident because they wanted me to pass them in a lane and wouldn't move across far enough (old people always want all the road). I clipped their mirror. Didn't break it. Big deal.

[jaf01uk]

paintman said:

OP

TooMany2cvs said:

AIUI, you have 24hrs to report a collision, if you couldn't stop at the time, so you're in the clear there. Unlikely to be any careless driving charge.

If the other guy contacts the Police, you can point to your reference number. Then it's just down to dipping your hand in your pocket for the damage or handing it to your insurance.

^^^^This. I'd be very surprised if the Police took any action.
And this:

Monkeylegend said:

You will be in more trouble on here than with the police.

Wrong!!! You must stop so you have failed to stop, the asap and in any case within 24 hours is only if you cannot find the driver, even on a 999 call if we are involved in any type of accident we have to stop, there is no exemption, poor advice... if the van was parked there then there was obviously somewhere for you to stop also, in front of it?

[Veovis]

jaf01uk said:

Wrong!!! You must stop so you have failed to stop, the asap and in any case within 24 hours is only if you cannot find the driver, even on a 999 call if we are involved in any type of accident we have to stop, there is no exemption, poor advice... if the van was parked there then there was obviously somewhere for you to stop also, in front of it?

No. Where these trucks stop, they leave enough room to get around them so as not to obstruct traffic (otherwise I'd hope they wouldn't be allowed to stop there at all) before the on-street parking starts and prevents two-way travel along the street. There's basically about a car-and-a-half length after the truck in which to pull into the clear lane, after that it's one direction at a time with double yellow lines and a bend - three "do not stop" instructions in one spot.

However, I don't know if that detail would be taken into consideration.

I know there's likely going to be no come-back on the actual clipping, and I know I won't get anything for failing to report (because I did). I'm now just concerned that my judgement call to not block traffic is going to result in charges of failing to stop and perhaps driving without due care, and that I've screwed myself up legally.

Faling to stop potentially results in points, fines and jail. I'm trying to determine which of these, if any, are likely. The guy on the 101 line suggested that by reporting it, I likely wouldn't be prosecuted, but I'm getting quite stressed about it, now.

Is my own report enough evidence to convict, or would they need the other driver's statement and witnesses?

[paintman]

Bit more digging so some light reading for the Bank Holiday.
It does indeed require you to stop at the scene & give details to any person having good reason to require them.
Even stopping 80 yards up the road & walking back has been held not to comply:
"[1.14]
The driver must stop at the scene1 and remain there for such time as is sufficient to enable any person who has a right to do so and a reasonable ground for so doing to obtain from the driver directly and personally the information which is required under the section2. This means remaining near the vehicle for a sufficient period to allow a person having reasonable grounds for doing so to ask for the driver's details3. The driver does not have to wait indefinitely. Every case must be a question of what at that time and in that situation was reasonable. The driver does not have to make any enquiries at the scene to discover whether there is anyone in close proximity entitled to the statutory information4.

1 In McDermott v DPP (1996) 161 JP 244, [1997] RTR 474 the defendant stopped 80 yards from the scene of the accident, to which he immediately walked back. The High Court upheld the justices' finding that he had not stopped as required by law.
2 Lee v Knapp [1967] 2 QB 442, [1966] 3 All ER 961.
3 Ward v Rawson [1978] RTR 498.
4 Mutton v Bates (1983) 147 JP 459, [1984] RTR 257."
A lot more here (extract from Butterworth's) which is also where the above is from: http://www.criminalsolicitor.net/forum/forum_posts...

If there is no damage to the mirror you clipped then there is no offence but not having stopped you aren't going to know:
"A duty is placed upon a driver where, owing to the presence of a mechanically propelled vehicle on a road or other public place, an accident occurs by which:
(a) personal injury is caused to a person other than the driver of that mechanically propelled vehicle; or
(b) damage is caused:"
BUT [1.5]–[1.10]
"'Injury' will include any actual bodily harm but may well extend to nervous shock. If only the driver himself is injured, the provisions do not apply, but they do if a passenger in the defendant's vehicle is injured."
so brace yourself for NWNF claims

Defences:
"Defences
You can defend these allegations. You would have a defence if you were not the driver at the time of the alleged offence. You would have a defence if you were not driving on a road or in a public place at the time when the accident occurred.
You would have a defence if you could show that you had stopped at the time of the alleged offence and that you had reported the incident in question. The most common defence raised is that the driver of a vehicle was unaware that an accident had taken place. Obviously the more dramatic the impact involved and the level of damage caused the more likely it is that would not have known that an accident had taken place. If you can genuinely argue that you were unaware that an accident had taken place then you have a defence to both of these allegations.
If you are not aware of an accident at the time when it occurs but you become aware of the accident within 24 hours of it taking place you are then under a duty to report the accident as if you had known about it in the first place.
The Prosecution have to prove, beyond reasonable doubt, that damage or injury was caused. If they can't prove this, then you will be able to defend it."
http://www.driverdefenceservice.co.uk/Failing-to-s...

Edited by paintman on Saturday 30th April 09:05

[Veovis]

paintman said:

The Prosecution have to prove, beyond reasonable doubt, that damage or injury was caused. If they can't prove this, then you will be able to defend it."
http://www.driverdefenceservice.co.uk/Failing-to-s...

Edited by paintman on Saturday 30th April 09:05

This is a little reassuring - if I didn't actually damage the other guy's mirror, there's no evidence with which to convict?

[paintman]

No damage, no injury - including the 'nervous shock' - then an accident as defined hasn't occurred. So you'll have to wait & see if the van driver/his company reports it. Nothing to prevent you going back & making your own enquiries.

What would be a reasonable distance to move the vehicle(s) after an accident/incident is a bit of a puzzler as remaining in situ may be dangerous. By the stated case - I can't find the full case so don't know the full circumstances but it does cross my mind that it might have been an attempt to drive away which was thwarted - it's going to have to be less than 80 yards.

[Flooble]

paintman said:

No damage, no injury - including the 'nervous shock' - then an accident as defined hasn't occurred. So you'll have to wait & see if the van driver/his company reports it.

What would be a reasonable distance to move the vehicle(s) after an accident/incident is a bit of a puzzler as remaining in situ may be dangerous. By the stated case - I can't find the full case so don't know the full circumstances but it does cross my mind that it might have been an attempt to drive away which was thwarted - it's going to have to be less than 80 yards.

The only hit with extra details I could find on McDermott (it wasn't on bailii) was

"Stanley Thomas Mcdermott -v- Director of Public Prosecutions Times, 27 November 1996
27 Nov 1996
QBD

Road Traffic
No compensation is available as against a driver on the basis that he was uninsured if in fact he is insured.
"

That sort of implies there were aggravating factors to that case

[Fastpedeller]

Veovis said:

paintman said:

The Prosecution have to prove, beyond reasonable doubt, that damage or injury was caused. If they can't prove this, then you will be able to defend it."
http://www.driverdefenceservice.co.uk/Failing-to-s...

Edited by paintman on Saturday 30th April 09:05

This is a little reassuring - if I didn't actually damage the other guy's mirror, there's no evidence with which to convict?

You are clearly an honest person, but (regrettably in some cases) most people take the pragmatic view. Even if the other vehicles mirror is broken - was it you that did it? It could have been another vehicle did the same 10 minutes before! Most people in your position would have just driven off and forgotten about it. It could be that they didn't know they'd done it. Think of it this way (like in my case earlier, where the person just denied it), they genuinely may not have known they'd done it - that is a defense to leaving the scene and not reporting. They may not have broken it - I could just be making it up because someone broke my mirror 2 days before and I didn't see them (that isn't the case, but that's a possibility). At the end of the day it isn't murder, or GBH, the cost involved is (relatively) small, just don't worry about it - it may already have been broken before you hit it!

[Veovis]

Well... my paperwork has been received and... they can't tell me anything for another couple of weeks. I think it all hinges on whether or not the other guy reported me.

If they decide to prosecute then that's fair enough - whilst I had a reason not to stop, it's not a valid legal defence (that I can see), but not knowing is stressing me out

[Riley Blue]

I wouldn't get too worried about it, clipping a wing mirror isn't a hanging offence. If I did it I'd be remorseful but would put it down to 'just one of those things'. I'd deal with the outcome and move on with life, it's too short to get uptight over such minor incidents.

[Veovis]

Riley Blue said:

I wouldn't get too worried about it, clipping a wing mirror isn't a hanging offence. If I did it I'd be remorseful but would put it down to 'just one of those things'. I'd deal with the outcome and move on with life, it's too short to get uptight over such minor incidents.

It's not the clipping that's going to be a problem, it's the driving off - that's got some serious potential penalties attached. Not knowing whether or not that's happening is quite stressful

[Riley Blue]

Veovis said:

Riley Blue said:

I wouldn't get too worried about it, clipping a wing mirror isn't a hanging offence. If I did it I'd be remorseful but would put it down to 'just one of those things'. I'd deal with the outcome and move on with life, it's too short to get uptight over such minor incidents.

It's not the clipping that's going to be a problem, it's the driving off - that's got some serious potential penalties attached. Not knowing whether or not that's happening is quite stressful

I appreciate that you're worried but it's unlikely to be a life changing event. No one was injured, the damage appears to be minimal, you reported it to the police. Far worse things can happen to you: serious illness, death of a loved one, disability. Compared to those, this isn't that big an issue, try not to let it become one. I hope when it's over you'll be able to see it for what it was.

[snorky782]

Veovis said:

It's not the clipping that's going to be a problem, it's the driving off - that's got some serious potential penalties attached. Not knowing whether or not that's happening is quite stressful

Somebody mentioned further up the thread that you should seek some form of specialist help from a mental health professional. You are worrying over nothing.

Today I smashed a wing mirror off a car as he tried squeeze me I to anlorry as I was filtering through virtually stationary traffic.

I won't lose a second of sleep or worry about it at all. I'll probably have completely forgotten it by this time tomorrow.

Seriously, get some help. You are heading for a nervous breakdown if this is indicative of your state of general worry.

[Flooble]

snorky782 said:

Somebody mentioned further up the thread that you should seek some form of specialist help from a mental health professional. You are worrying over nothing.

Today I smashed a wing mirror off a car as he tried squeeze me I to anlorry as I was filtering through virtually stationary traffic.

I won't lose a second of sleep or worry about it at all. I'll probably have completely forgotten it by this time tomorrow.

Seriously, get some help. You are heading for a nervous breakdown if this is indicative of your state of general worry.

I can sympathise, being a natural born worrier myself. It is not in some people's nature to forget about things, however, it is worth remembering that all things which don't involve death or life changing injury can be recovered from with the passage of time. If you do collect some points on your licence they won't be there forever; you only have to declare accidents in the last 3 or 5 years depending on insurer; any cost to repair your car will be earned back within x months and so on.

If you take a deep breath and picture yourself in five years' time, this will be a distant memory.

[snorky782]

Flooble said:

I can sympathise, being a natural born worrier myself. It is not in some people's nature to forget about things, however, it is worth remembering that all things which don't involve death or life changing injury can be recovered from with the passage of time. If you do collect some points on your licence they won't be there forever; you only have to declare accidents in the last 3 or 5 years depending on insurer; any cost to repair your car will be earned back within x months and so on.

If you take a deep breath and picture yourself in five years' time, this will be a distant memory.

I'm going to be careful saying this, but I bet he takes far more notice of your post than mine. You have effectively confirmed his worries. There is no need to worry, there will be no points coming, there is nothing at all to be flapping about, especially two weeks after it happened.

[Veovis]

snorky782 said:

Flooble said:

I can sympathise, being a natural born worrier myself. It is not in some people's nature to forget about things, however, it is worth remembering that all things which don't involve death or life changing injury can be recovered from with the passage of time. If you do collect some points on your licence they won't be there forever; you only have to declare accidents in the last 3 or 5 years depending on insurer; any cost to repair your car will be earned back within x months and so on.

If you take a deep breath and picture yourself in five years' time, this will be a distant memory.

I'm going to be careful saying this, but I bet he takes far more notice of your post than mine. You have effectively confirmed his worries. There is no need to worry, there will be no points coming, there is nothing at all to be flapping about, especially two weeks after it happened.

The police can't tell me if I'm being prosecuted or not for another two weeks. At worst, I'm looking at failing to stop with an additional charge of driving without due care, which combined is a lot of points and a potential ban. I'm very concerned.

[snorky782]

Veovis said:

The police can't tell me if I'm being prosecuted or not for another two weeks. At worst, I'm looking at failing to stop with an additional charge of driving without due care, which combined is a lot of points and a potential ban. I'm very concerned.

And there we go.

1. Any motoring solicitor will tell you that you do not face two charges for one offence

2. Any motoring solicitor will tell you, there is zero value in this being pursued.

You are worrying over nothing. Get yourself looked at and stop worrying about things that won't happen. The sky is not falling.