Alternative to speed limits and cameras?

Alternative to speed limits and cameras?

Author
Discussion

KevinCorvetteC6

11,555 posts

279 months

Friday 29th April 2016
quotequote all
Esceptico said:
KevinCorvetteC6 said:
There is no case for cameras as they can only 'police' one issue - speed in excess of the arbitrary limit. Since speeding is only the cause of a very small percentage of accidents (note, cause not contributory to effect) they are focussed on the wrong cause of accidents. Far bigger causes are incompetence, lack of concentration, excess speed for the conditions, tailgating, incorrect lane use, dangerous driving. All of those can only be policed by real live policemen.
Why is it an either or? You could do both. If you don't police limits then they will be ignored - is that what you are arguing for? No limits?
Policemen are quite capable of policing speed limits at the same time as the major causes of accidents and no, I am not arguing for no limits. I would also argue for tougher testing, limited retakes etc.

R0G

4,984 posts

154 months

Friday 29th April 2016
quotequote all
drivers proved they could stick to limits in order to pass the test but once passed they then belive they know better

if they did not believe in the limits in the first place then why bother to agree to them by passing the test ?

KevinCorvetteC6

11,555 posts

279 months

Friday 29th April 2016
quotequote all
tapereel said:
KevinCorvetteC6 said:
There is no case for cameras as they can only 'police' one issue - speed in excess of the arbitrary limit. Since speeding is only the cause of a very small percentage of accidents (note, cause not contributory to effect) they are focussed on the wrong cause of accidents. Far bigger causes are incompetence, lack of concentration, excess speed for the conditions, tailgating, incorrect lane use, dangerous driving. All of those can only be policed by real live policemen.
Cameras don't always have a single use, they have been used to prosecute the following:
  1. excess speed for the conditions
  2. tailgating
  3. incorrect lane use
  4. dangerous driving
  5. no seat belts
  6. mobile phone use
  7. other stuff too numerous to mention
Oh! were some of those on your list?
Really? Fixed cameras have been used for all those? Please provide links to specific cases? A camera does not care about the weather and road conditions. For example a motorway camera set to snap at circa 80 mph will ignore somebody doing 60 in heavy snow and ice, when 30 may be the maximum safe speed. How do they detect mobile phone use? How do they detect no seat belts or dangerous driving? All they can do is take a photo if you exceed the speed limit by enough to trigger them.

Variable speed limit cameras may possibly detect other things, but you would be reliant on an operator looking at the correct screen at the correct time to actually see it. Otherwise again, all that will happen is a ticket being issued if you trigger the algorithmic calculation that you were too fast.

Mobile 'cameras' are actually lasers being manually operated with a camera triggered where speeding takes place.

otolith

55,899 posts

203 months

Friday 29th April 2016
quotequote all
Because otherwise they are not allowed to drive at all?

I guess they have probably also dropped the wheel-shuffling, exaggerated mirror checking movements and avoidance of motorways.

Ken Figenus

5,678 posts

116 months

Friday 29th April 2016
quotequote all
Speed limits are essential and completely appropriate, even if excessive speed is a factor only in a tiny proportion of accidents. However you do the UK motorist a huge disservice when you say you wouldn't trust them to go at an appropriate speed. This has been one of the key ways of actually setting limits in the past and was based on the 85th percentile - the 'natural speed' that 85% of motorists travel at on a section of road. That is being dumbed down in a typical meddling and politico local authority way now and limits change almost constantly - with added 20mph and 50mph limits that can be quite disagreeable and unnecessary.

Every copper knows how to handle and apply limits in a common sense way, but the last camera van I saw was on the end of a mile long straight hoping to catch us enthusiasts doing 70mph on this 60mph uninhabited, junctionless straight. Being 10mph over there was an utter irrelevance but being 10mph over in other places could have been genuinely antisocial and far more worth policing. Then there is the knock on disservice that these such civilian camera vans cause to real road policing - never has proper policing for stuff that is ALWAYS genuinely dangerous been worse. Its just all about IT, surveillance and software and I far prefer a copper's beady eye, nasal senses(!) and instinct to genuinely generate real road and PREVENTATIVE road safety rather than just generate revenue and manipulated statistics that few by now buy or trust.

So your question 'an alternative' - more proper road policing using brains and discretion and less lucrative automated fines for open road irrelevances. Happier all round I reckon and safer.


Edited by Ken Figenus on Friday 29th April 16:29

vonhosen

40,198 posts

216 months

Friday 29th April 2016
quotequote all
Ken Figenus said:
Speed limits are essential and completely appropriate, even if excessive speed is a factor only in a tiny proportion of accidents. However you do the UK motorist a huge disservice when you say you wouldn't trust them to go at an appropriate speed. This has been one of the key ways of actually setting limits in the past and was based on the 85th percentile - the 'natural speed' that 85% of motorists travel at on a section of road.
The 85th percentile is not 'the natural speed that 85% of motorists travel at'.

Esceptico

Original Poster:

7,334 posts

108 months

Friday 29th April 2016
quotequote all
Ken Figenus said:
Speed limits are essential and completely appropriate, even if excessive speed is a factor only in a tiny proportion of accidents. However you do the UK motorist a huge disservice when you say you wouldn't trust them to go at an appropriate speed. This has been one of the key ways of actually setting limits in the past and was based on the 85th percentile - the 'natural speed' that 85% of motorists travel at on a section of road. That is being dumbed down in a typical meddling and politico local authority way now and limits change almost constantly - with added 20mph and 50mph limits that can be quite disagreeable and unnecessary.

Every copper knows how to handle and apply limits in a common sense way, but the last camera van I saw was on the end of a mile long straight hoping to catch us enthusiasts doing 70mph on this 60mph uninhabited, junctionless straight. Being 10mph over there was an utter irrelevance but being 10mph over in other places could have been genuinely antisocial and far more worth policing. Then there is the knock on disservice that these such civilian camera vans cause to real road policing - never has proper policing for stuff that is ALWAYS genuinely dangerous been worse. Its just all about IT, surveillance and software and I far prefer a copper's beady eye, nasal senses(!) and instinct to genuinely generate real road safety rather than just generate revenue and manipulated statistics that few by now buy or trust.

So your question 'an alternative' - more proper road policing using brains and discretion and less lucrative automated fines for open road irrelevances. Happier all round I reckon and safer.

Edited by Ken Figenus on Friday 29th April 16:05
As far as I know the 85th percentile means that if you ranked 100 people's speed from slowest to fastest then the 85th percentile is the 85th fastest. So a long way from being the average (the median would be the 50th percentile).

30 mph may have been the 85th percentile when cars struggled to reach 30 or you were including horse and carts but that seems a nonsense today. I do try to stick to 30 mph limits - even then I am generally doing an indicated 33 (so a real 30) yet I am constantly tailgated every day by people trying to make me go faster.

I think you also confuse people being slow in the wrong places to exercising good judgement - or is it just me that constantly comes across people doing 45 in a 60 even though you could comfortably do 90 yet when they come to the 30 limit that only drop down to 40 irrespective of whether there are hazards.

Your post seems to suggest that people that do 70 in a 60 are a completely different population to the ones that do 40 in a 30 ie that they speed appropriately. There are some people for which that doesn't count but in general people I see that speed in NSL also speed in town (although as noted above it doesn't always work the other way). Catching people speeding in NSLs is perhaps easier for the police but those same people would probably be caught if they set up a trap in town. That isn't surprising because most people who speed have a "speeding" mentality ie they justify what they are doing and don't see it is wrong (limits are too low, they know what they are doing, cameras only raise revenue, this road could have a higher limit).

Ken Figenus

5,678 posts

116 months

Friday 29th April 2016
quotequote all
Esceptico said:
Your post seems to suggest that people that do 70 in a 60 are a completely different population to the ones that do 40 in a 30 ie that they speed appropriately. There are some people for which that doesn't count but in general people I see that speed in NSL also speed in town (although as noted above it doesn't always work the other way). Catching people speeding in NSLs is perhaps easier for the police but those same people would probably be caught if they set up a trap in town. That isn't surprising because most people who speed have a "speeding" mentality ie they justify what they are doing and don't see it is wrong (limits are too low, they know what they are doing, cameras only raise revenue, this road could have a higher limit).
Yes I think you are right - its a personal opinion that may not apply to those that hoon about everywhere selfishly. I think the many I know who like a spirited safe drive now and again, away from everyone, do 100% stick to the limits in urban areas. There are just lots more hazards and children (sic) to knock over and its no great hardship after all is it? 85 mph on a dry motorway however is a real world irrelevance to most of us but that 45mph by the shops/houses absolutely isnt. They are enforced in the same manner of course but I think the policing might be better biased towards the real actual increase in risk one. Where I live they will be mostly enforcing on the open roads where the risk increase or potential harm caused by speeding is less. Balance smile

Esceptico

Original Poster:

7,334 posts

108 months

Friday 29th April 2016
quotequote all
Ken Figenus said:
Yes I think you are right - its a personal opinion that may not apply to those that hoon about everywhere selfishly. I think the many I know who like a spirited safe drive now and again, away from everyone, do 100% stick to the limits in urban areas. There are just lots more hazards and children (sic) to knock over and its no great hardship after all is it? 85 mph on a dry motorway however is a real world irrelevance to most of us but that 45mph by the shops/houses absolutely isnt. They are enforced in the same manner of course but I think the policing might be better biased towards the real actual increase in risk one. Where I live they will be mostly enforcing on the open roads where the risk increase or potential harm caused by speeding is less. Balance smile
I try to follow the advice of my advanced motorcycling instructor (ex motorbike traffic cop): stick to 30 in town as that is where accidents happen, stick to 80 or below on motorways and DCs as that is where you get nicked and in NSL use your discretion but make progress (his other description of the NSL sign was GLF - go like fk - and when I tried following him he meant it

Digby

8,230 posts

245 months

Friday 29th April 2016
quotequote all
Esceptico said:
The current system in the UK - where cameras are painted yellow and even mobile police units are in marked vans or with police in HiVis seems to give UK speeders a pretty good chance of avoiding detection.
Haha, that's great......oh, wait, you were serious?

People who want to take the piss in a 30 mph zone will do so whether you have a camera in place or not. The majority of roads do not have a camera and rarely see a copper or talivan and the majority of roads are used by those who know not to take the piss. The problems start when limits are too low and those who drive above those limits get targeted. The odd school Mum hitting 50 mph? Why bother when your new reduced 70 to 50 limit can be like "Shooting fish in a barrel"

Let's talk again maybe about those involved in the industry who admit it is often about money and those with links to those who are due to appear in court on corruption charges etc. Maybe we can get an idea of why road safety is often no longer about safety and is more to do with the "blank chequebooks" they were sold as from the start. Perhaps this will help explain many of the limits, almost all of the hidden cameras, the grey and black painted versions, the straight road targeting, the altered stats, the cover-ups, the FOI denials.....

Perhaps then we can decide on what to do for the best?

It's also a great way to end conversations like this and save some time, because all the people who try their hardest to defend what is often nothing more than a scam, simply shrivel up and vanish for a while.

Remember the "HGV limits are too low" conversations where the same old faces ignored suggestions that dangerous overtakes occur etc and that speeds should not be increased? The Government and numerous experts agreed with 'us' and those posters shriveled up and vanished.

To answer your question, stop making it a money-making corrupt system first and then let's work out what to do.




Esceptico

Original Poster:

7,334 posts

108 months

Friday 29th April 2016
quotequote all
Digby said:
Haha, that's great......oh, wait, you were serious?

People who want to take the piss in a 30 mph zone will do so whether you have a camera in place or not. The majority of roads do not have a camera and rarely see a copper or talivan and the majority of roads are used by those who know not to take the piss. The problems start when limits are too low and those who drive above those limits get targeted. The odd school Mum hitting 50 mph? Why bother when your new reduced 70 to 50 limit can be like "Shooting fish in a barrel"

Let's talk again maybe about those involved in the industry who admit it is often about money and those with links to those who are due to appear in court on corruption charges etc. Maybe we can get an idea of why road safety is often no longer about safety and is more to do with the "blank chequebooks" they were sold as from the start. Perhaps this will help explain many of the limits, almost all of the hidden cameras, the grey and black painted versions, the straight road targeting, the altered stats, the cover-ups, the FOI denials.....

Perhaps then we can decide on what to do for the best?

It's also a great way to end conversations like this and save some time, because all the people who try their hardest to defend what is often nothing more than a scam, simply shrivel up and vanish for a while.

Remember the "HGV limits are too low" conversations where the same old faces ignored suggestions that dangerous overtakes occur etc and that speeds should not be increased? The Government and numerous experts agreed with 'us' and those posters shriveled up and vanished.

To answer your question, stop making it a money-making corrupt system first and then let's work out what to do.
Foil hats at the ready!

Just checked the Internet to see that total number of speeding fines in 2014 was 115,000. Say on average the fine was £100. That is a total of £11.5 million. For the whole country. To put that into context the investment bank that worked on the last deal I was involved with got a bigger fee and I think they only had about 20 people on the team. In comparison that £11 million of revenue would have involved thousands of people - police officers, court officials, admin staff to process it. Almost certainly the cost of enforcing speeding limits far exceeds the revenue gained from fines. To call it revenue raising is surely a joke. But then that applies to so much of the criminal justice system.

Digby

8,230 posts

245 months

Friday 29th April 2016
quotequote all
Esceptico said:
Foil hats at the ready!
I win. Quicker this time, too!

Esceptico

Original Poster:

7,334 posts

108 months

Friday 29th April 2016
quotequote all
Some more fun figures. There are roughly 30 million drivers in the UK and on average we make 1000 car trips per year. So there are 30,000,000,000 trips. Let's be generous and say speeding occurs on only half of those trips so only 15,000,000,000 trips with speeding, So 100'000 speeding tickets. So only one ticket for each 150'000 trips with speeding. That has to be the worst crime detection and punishment rate imaginable. Think if you only got a parking ticket once every 150'000 times you illegal parked! It only 1 in 150'000 shop lifters were prosecuted? Enforcement of speeding is almost non existent in this country.

Digby

8,230 posts

245 months

Friday 29th April 2016
quotequote all
Esceptico said:
Just checked the Internet to see that total number of speeding fines in 2014 was 115,000.
I just ran out and checked the internet, also.

In 2015 - 1,207,570 drivers on speed awareness courses. More expensive, too. Back to your blackboard, chap.

The same article lists how cameras were going to be switched on permanently to make up for budget cuts. Quite a bit of that going on as it happens...

Try harder.


grumpy52

5,565 posts

165 months

Friday 29th April 2016
quotequote all
Motorway speed limits cause bunching and then irritation.
In experiments of no limits the average speeds only raised very marginally and bunching and lane discipline vastly improved .
Also in urban areas when all road markings and street furniture were removed drivers became more aware and actually drove slower .
The presence of marked police units usually improves driving standards .
Unless it's that old twunt driving a 5 series on the M25 last year who ended up getting arrested because he maintained he could drive in whichever lane he chose and not the empty lanes on his left .
You cannot legislate for stupid .

0000

13,812 posts

190 months

Friday 29th April 2016
quotequote all
I certainly think removing limits on major motorways would improve lane discipline pretty quickly.

Cameras are about the worst tool there is for enforcing limits. They miss 99% of speeding instances, they do nothing to stop someone choosing to speed and on the whole they don't result in many people being removed from the roads while taking money from very many people to fund an industry that then results in an increasingly disproportionate effect on road policy. Grubby money for grubby people, I'd rather we had none.

Digby

8,230 posts

245 months

Friday 29th April 2016
quotequote all
grumpy52 said:
Motorway speed limits cause bunching and then irritation.
In experiments of no limits the average speeds only raised very marginally and bunching and lane discipline vastly improved .
As a regular user of the M25, as I reported some time ago, one morning, all of the variable limits were off for the first time I can remember since they were introduced. I assume there was a problem as nothing was lit.

It was the best journey during rush hour I have had on that section in years. The following day, they were all back on and it was back to the usual stop start affair we all know and love..

As for the street furniture comment, I am convinced this is one of the issues at the Dartford tunnel when going South to North. They aimed to make things free-flowing and installed traffic lights, cameras at those lights and so much colourful crap everywhere that drivers slow down just to be sure either the lights are not about to go red, or that they are not breaking the rules.

The result? Job losses, millions spent and often as much congestion as there was before during peak times. Brilliant.

witko999

629 posts

207 months

Friday 29th April 2016
quotequote all
Esceptico said:
Some more fun figures. There are roughly 30 million drivers in the UK and on average we make 1000 car trips per year. So there are 30,000,000,000 trips. Let's be generous and say speeding occurs on only half of those trips so only 15,000,000,000 trips with speeding, So 100'000 speeding tickets. So only one ticket for each 150'000 trips with speeding. That has to be the worst crime detection and punishment rate imaginable. Think if you only got a parking ticket once every 150'000 times you illegal parked! It only 1 in 150'000 shop lifters were prosecuted? Enforcement of speeding is almost non existent in this country.
I'm not sure where you got these random numbers from, but if speeding enforcement is almost non existent, then presumably every journey you spend avoiding all the nutters travelling at 3 figure speeds, because:


Esceptico said:
If you don't police limits then they will be ignored
Thousands of people aren't dying each day on the roads, so do we need heavy enforcement or not?

As long as we have a driving test with a difficulty level set so that 99% of the population are able to pass easily, then there will be incompetent drivers on the road. Unfortunately speed cameras pick up on none of these.
A fairer stance would be to ban/assign points to anyone that has an accident. After all, they have been driving poorly enough to crash, whereas an irrelevant jaunt over the speed limit will very likely have no consequences.


twoblacklines

1,575 posts

160 months

Saturday 30th April 2016
quotequote all
They should charge people who want to speed more money. Say, £1k a year. After all, it is always about money!

Esceptico

Original Poster:

7,334 posts

108 months

Saturday 30th April 2016
quotequote all
Mea culpa. It was late last night and I was tired when I did a quick search for speeding ticket figures. Having rechecked this morning the 115,000 is actually the number of people prosecuted by magistrates and doesn't include fixed penalty notices nor speed awareness courses (the article where I found the 115,000 didn't make that clear but further research did). The 115,000 felt too low.

Another search this morning turned up another statistic, this time directly from the government in response to a request for information. Apparently there are 42 million people with driving licences in the UK of which 2.4 million currently have points on their licence - so around 6% of drivers. Interestingly of the 2.4 million people with points, 1.7 million were men. Those figures seem surprisingly high. Certainly where I live there are some average speed cameras and some fixed cameras too but everyone living here knows of their existence and I've never seen them flash. I've only seen police with speed guns once in the two years we have been here.