Red Filter Light Accident in Nantwich

[Cmakka23]

I'm a Driving Instructor in Crewe and Nantwich, as said above, the junction is normal, when the lights change the Green Filter always comes on first allowing traffic to turn right across the junction towards the town centre. There's a good 10 second delay between the filter arrow going off before the oncoming traffic is released. I've seen many accidents there over the years unfortunately.

[Riley Blue]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I would guess that drivers are continuing to turn right after the filter arrow has gone off thus into the path of oncoming traffic. It's the only time in the sequence that it seems possible.

[herewego]

Cmakka23 said:

I'm a Driving Instructor in Crewe and Nantwich, as said above, the junction is normal, when the lights change the Green Filter always comes on first allowing traffic to turn right across the junction towards the town centre. There's a good 10 second delay between the filter arrow going off before the oncoming traffic is released. I've seen many accidents there over the years unfortunately.

What do you put those accidents down to?

Edited by herewego on Saturday 30th April 19:03

[Red Devil]

silverfoxcc said:

If the Nantwich uction is this there are two possible scenarios

1) the the driver of the immaculate contraption went on his filter and the Range Rover did a 'sheep' start from the driver on his right and hit him

The LR Discovery (not a RR btw) driver can't have done that because the opposite arm of the Nantwich junction (Millstone Lane) has only one lane and no corresponding right turn filter - https://goo.gl/maps/HwQoBZ85AZr

From the responses it is clear that in some places the sequencing is 'right filter first' and vice-versa in others. There doesn't appear to be any standardisation or even an expressed preference from the DfT AFAIK . I'm guessing it depends on the junction and the major traffic flow. Where the bulk of it is making a right turn rather than going straight on, then 'right filter first' makes a certain amount of sense in that gives more total time on green for that traffic stream and prevents a tailback building up. The road widths and markings at the junction in question suggest to me that is the case.

That said, the 'right filter first' has a major downside here which is that the second part of the sequence then becomes a 'free-for-all' with oncoming traffic from Millstone Lane also being on green. To me that seems very counter-intuitive and may be the explanation for why the collision occurred.

[4x4Tyke]

Presumable his driving is as chaotic as his description.

It was probably green for straight on and he tried to turn right without waiting for the right filter to turn green, an implied 'red'.

[Sheepshanks]

4x4Tyke said:

It was probably green for straight on and he tried to turn right without waiting for the right filter to turn green, an implied 'red'.

Once the green filter has gone off the next thing that happens is the lights go red.

I know it was a Discovery that hit him, but if he's thinking his 2014 Prius could possibly be right-off then it must have been a chunky impact - it's hard to think he shouldn't have realised that the Discovery was approaching rather faster than would be expected if it was going to stop at a red light.

For his car to have suffered NSF damage he must have turned in front of the Discovery at the very last moment as the Discovery approached.


I don't know - sometimes you look at these things afterwards and think "how on earth did that happen?". I suspect the Prius driver is doing that now.

Edited by Sheepshanks on Saturday 30th April 22:10

[Jim1556]

I'm surprised anyone on here gives a fk!

It's one less POS Prius on the road, and that should be applauded!

[Sheepshanks]

powerstroke said:

..so if the prius was trying to turn right then maybe he didn't realise that the oncomeing traffic had priorty once the lights changed even when his were green..

...still a bit off for the Discovery driver to just drive into him though!

That's why I think the Prius guy must have turned suddenly and when the Discovery was almost on top of him - it's not a massive junction, but he'd still have been turning right some way ahead of the opposing Stop line. Why didn't he realise the Discovery wasn't going to stop?


ETA: I suppose what might seem a bit odd is there's no filter light on the first set of light the Prius driver would have gone through - there's a set of lights either side of the carriageway and both are "normal" lights and both would be green. I can only guess that he thought the green light on right allowed gave him priority, otherwise he'd have treated it like a normal junction.

The green filter arrow doesn't come into play until you're into the junction.

Edited by Sheepshanks on Saturday 30th April 22:40

[Roo]

Sheepshanks said:

I know it was a Discovery that hit him, but if he's thinking his 2014 Prius could possibly be right-off then it must have been a chunky impact - it's hard to think he shouldn't have realised that the Discovery was approaching rather faster than would be expected if it was going to stop at a red light.

It's quite common for insurers to write off a hybrid car after an impact that would see other cars rebuilt. They're worried about the potential shock from the high voltage system during the repair and afterwards.

Jim1556 said:

I'm surprised anyone on here gives a fk!

It's one less POS Prius on the road, and that should be applauded!

I'm guessing you've never driven one and don't understand how the technology in them works.

[Sheepshanks]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

If you go back and read his posts he says in multiple posts that he came through a green light. That's correct - he did. He says in his most recent post that he never saw a green filter. He seems to have been told there's a red filter light, indeed his last post says he saw it. Maybe that's been added since the Google earth pictures were taken - I haven't driven through that junction in that direction for years due to the bypass, although I did drive the other way a few weeks ago.

I added to my earlier post, but what I think has happened here is he's assumed the main green light gave him the OK to go. I can only guess this was because it was on the right of the lane he was in, but obviously I have no idea what was he was thinking.

Maybe the filter was on green for a short time (correctly) and he saw the traffic being held the other way and that further bolstered his view that he could proceed. However that means the Discovery driver would have to have set off on his light going green and simply driven into the Prius - possible, I suppose.

Or perhaps there really is a red filter now (although he posted a Google Earth link and doesn't suggest anything has changed) and he simply missed it.

Edited by Sheepshanks on Saturday 30th April 23:37

[Red Devil]

Sheepshanks said:

4x4Tyke said:

It was probably green for straight on and he tried to turn right without waiting for the right filter to turn green, an implied 'red'.

Once the green filter has gone off the next thing that happens is the lights go red.

That's not how I read the post from Cmakka23. Being a local driving instructor I reckon he is the best position to give a definitive answer. I remain of the opinion that 'right filter first' phasing is counter-intuitive. The upshot being that it is inherently more hazardous than the opposite scenario. A track record of conflicts at that junction would suggest that this is the case.

[Sheepshanks]

Red Devil said:

Sheepshanks said:

4x4Tyke said:

It was probably green for straight on and he tried to turn right without waiting for the right filter to turn green, an implied 'red'.

Once the green filter has gone off the next thing that happens is the lights go red.

That's not how I read the post from Cmakka23. Being a local driving instructor I reckon he is the best position to give a definitive answer.

I meant on the set of lights that has the filter arrow. They'd go main green and filter green together, then filter green would go off, then they'd go to red (via amber, of course).

The red filter thing is baffling - apart from being told about it, Prius driver says he saw it himself afterwards.

[herewego]

In fact he gives a reference and says look at the filter light there is a small extension with a red arrow next to it, but looking at the picture there is nothing to be seen.

[Sheepshanks]

herewego said:

In fact he gives a reference and says look at the filter light there is a small extension with a red arrow next to it, but looking at the picture there is nothing to be seen.

Even if such a thing existed, it surely wouldn't be in that position (next to main green) anyway? That'd be pretty confusing for people with red/green colour blindness.

That's why I wonder if the lights have changed since the Google Earth pictures were taken, but if that was the case, you'd think Prius driver would mention it.

[softtop]

Nickyboy said:

I'm dubious about this red filter arrow unless anyone here has actually seen it

There us nothing in the highway code about a red filter arrow, there is red direction arrows but they are only used to denote lights for a certain lane, not for filter.

The green light he had was for straight ahead, the green filter light would have come on when it was safe to turn, before then you have to give way.

Driver error, misinterpreting the signals

I drove this yesterday after spotting this thread. It is a green filter

[Jim1556]

Roo said:

Jim1556 said:

I'm surprised anyone on here gives a fk!

It's one less POS Prius on the road, and that should be applauded!

I'm guessing you've never driven one and don't understand how the technology in them works.

LOL. Not likely to drive one, they actually make me want to throw up a little.

I know how the technology works fine thanks, I don't think hybrids are the way forward at all. Hydrogen, maybe. But a prius wont achieve the mpg of my diesel vRS in the real world so I think they're pointless - unless you commute 20 miles a day and are happy with battery life/lease costs...

[Moonhawk]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

The highway code does not confer such a right.

[Moonhawk]

Sheepshanks said:

What generally happens at this type of junction in Cheshire is the green for straight on and the green arrow come on together, with the traffic in the opposite direction being held. Then after a few seconds the green arrow goes off (there's no red) and the lights in the opposing direction go green and it becomes a normal two way junction.

I suspect this is what happened.

This is the junction I believe (it's watermarked 2016) - looks like a regular filter arrow traffic light setup.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Beam+St,+Nantw...

Edited by Moonhawk on Sunday 1st May 22:32

[Roo]

Jim1556 said:

LOL. Not likely to drive one, they actually make me want to throw up a little.

I know how the technology works fine thanks, I don't think hybrids are the way forward at all. Hydrogen, maybe. But a prius wont achieve the mpg of my diesel vRS in the real world so I think they're pointless - unless you commute 20 miles a day and are happy with battery life/lease costs...

You get 55-60mpg on a daily commute? Then compare that to the difference of also driving a petrol auto car much bigger than what you're driving.

As for battery life/lease costs you obviously have no idea how a Prius works.

You do also realise hydrogen takes more energy to produce than it makes as usable energy for a car?

[Moonhawk]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

The start of the "General rules, techniques and advice for all drivers and riders (103 to 158)" section.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/gener...

It states:

"This section should be read by all drivers, motorcyclists, cyclists and horse riders. The rules in The Highway Code do not give you the right of way in any circumstance, but they advise you when you should give way to others. Always give way if it can help to avoid an incident."