Garage Woes Advice Required
Discussion
Hi,
Not my usual place but a bit of advice required.
Ford Transit Connect, required new cam belt as part of general service which was duly replaced along with tensioner, full service of vehicle done at same time and all cleared as good by garage doing work.
48 hours late cruising the M1 soundtrack disturbed by short clattering sound and then silience,
On inspection bottom end of engine rotates, valve train remains stationary, instant diagnosis, the rubber band keeping cam turning in synchronisation with pistons is no longer working.
Called garage who completed work and vehicle was duly returned to Garage.
Initial diagnosis from Garage, "Its your bottom end mate" after a quick conversation explaining my own diagnostic thoughts and requesting that they wait on repairs until I get an independent inspector involved leads to second diagnosis. "The cam tensioner has let go". I assume this means it has broken or failed to do it's task of maitaining cam belt tension.
I explained that I felt 48 hours was a little quick for the unit to fail and expected some form of warrantee repair. The garage then informed me that they thought it was component failure and they are awaiting Gates (The belt tensioner manufacturer) engineer. They could not give me a date for the repair.
Bank holiday comes and goes no van available. As I am a contractor and need van for work and requested a date for repair to be complete so I could try and manage work. Garage was very vague and waiting for a date for Gates to inspect.
Spoke to Garage owner and explained I would need a replacement vehicle, the garage owner was not able to supply, despite having van of same spec on forecourt for sale. I explained would need van so would have to hire one with expectation of refund when works completed.
Garage have given me document stating that they will refund if work is found to be faulty as a result of workmanship, but if material failure is the issue then they are saying Gates would need to pay for van hire.
My thought is that my contract is with garage, I did not specify they use Gates components, I left that to garage. Therefore it should not be up to me to chase Gates for recovery of costs.
I am not looking for any consequential losses of losing work etc for the 3 days after the incident but only the hire charges from the point where the garage could no longer give me an answer when the repair would be effected.
Thoughts and comments please.
Am I right iin expecting a hire vehicle or some replacment whilst waiting for warranty repair to be completed.
Should garage cover the refund and the chase Gates rather than leave it to me to chase Gates.
Thanks in advance.
Not my usual place but a bit of advice required.
Ford Transit Connect, required new cam belt as part of general service which was duly replaced along with tensioner, full service of vehicle done at same time and all cleared as good by garage doing work.
48 hours late cruising the M1 soundtrack disturbed by short clattering sound and then silience,
On inspection bottom end of engine rotates, valve train remains stationary, instant diagnosis, the rubber band keeping cam turning in synchronisation with pistons is no longer working.
Called garage who completed work and vehicle was duly returned to Garage.
Initial diagnosis from Garage, "Its your bottom end mate" after a quick conversation explaining my own diagnostic thoughts and requesting that they wait on repairs until I get an independent inspector involved leads to second diagnosis. "The cam tensioner has let go". I assume this means it has broken or failed to do it's task of maitaining cam belt tension.
I explained that I felt 48 hours was a little quick for the unit to fail and expected some form of warrantee repair. The garage then informed me that they thought it was component failure and they are awaiting Gates (The belt tensioner manufacturer) engineer. They could not give me a date for the repair.
Bank holiday comes and goes no van available. As I am a contractor and need van for work and requested a date for repair to be complete so I could try and manage work. Garage was very vague and waiting for a date for Gates to inspect.
Spoke to Garage owner and explained I would need a replacement vehicle, the garage owner was not able to supply, despite having van of same spec on forecourt for sale. I explained would need van so would have to hire one with expectation of refund when works completed.
Garage have given me document stating that they will refund if work is found to be faulty as a result of workmanship, but if material failure is the issue then they are saying Gates would need to pay for van hire.
My thought is that my contract is with garage, I did not specify they use Gates components, I left that to garage. Therefore it should not be up to me to chase Gates for recovery of costs.
I am not looking for any consequential losses of losing work etc for the 3 days after the incident but only the hire charges from the point where the garage could no longer give me an answer when the repair would be effected.
Thoughts and comments please.
Am I right iin expecting a hire vehicle or some replacment whilst waiting for warranty repair to be completed.
Should garage cover the refund and the chase Gates rather than leave it to me to chase Gates.
Thanks in advance.
I would agree in the case of the original repair, however the van is now off the road as a result of a component failure (or incorrect installation of a component).
The garage has accepted liability for the failure. But cannot give me a timeframe for these repairs to be completed as they are waiting on inspection by others.
The garage has accepted liability for the failure. But cannot give me a timeframe for these repairs to be completed as they are waiting on inspection by others.
The biggest stumbling block that I can see is what actually failed ?
Was the tensioner replaced along with the belt ?
Was the tensioner supplied as part of kit with the Gates belt .
Most will recommend that all free revolving components, ie tensioner and in some cases water pump ,are replaced at the same time as the belt .
When I was in the trade Gates were the go to belt as they carried a guarantee.
I have not heard of a failure of one of their belts ,all problems were caused by the failure of another component.
The clattering you heard before the silence was in my opinion a component failing before the belt was released ,or did the belt actually break ?
Was the tensioner replaced along with the belt ?
Was the tensioner supplied as part of kit with the Gates belt .
Most will recommend that all free revolving components, ie tensioner and in some cases water pump ,are replaced at the same time as the belt .
When I was in the trade Gates were the go to belt as they carried a guarantee.
I have not heard of a failure of one of their belts ,all problems were caused by the failure of another component.
The clattering you heard before the silence was in my opinion a component failing before the belt was released ,or did the belt actually break ?
Assuming all new parts were fitted and of Gates or equivalent quality, IMO it's more likely something left loose or tensioned incorrectly.
In which instance, Gates wash their hands of it and you have to persuade the garage to rectify their mistake.
All of this could be a long, drawn out process and if it doesn't go your way you could be severely out of pocket for accrued hire van costs
Tread carefully.
In which instance, Gates wash their hands of it and you have to persuade the garage to rectify their mistake.
All of this could be a long, drawn out process and if it doesn't go your way you could be severely out of pocket for accrued hire van costs
Tread carefully.
I had this exact issue a couple of years ago. Gates kit etc etc. I spoke to my suppliers who said gates will wash their hands of it and claim fitting error (It could have been), it would then be up to me to prove it and sue them.
I just rebuilt the engine in the end. Cost about £300, and 1.5 days. Luckily the customer had another van to use, so I didn't have that issue, but I never saw the guy again once the job was complete!
I just rebuilt the engine in the end. Cost about £300, and 1.5 days. Luckily the customer had another van to use, so I didn't have that issue, but I never saw the guy again once the job was complete!
All,
The garage is being reasonable at the moment, they have said:
If Gates do not honour warrantee then they will pay for repairs and hire car.
If Gates honour warrantee then I will have to claim from Gates direct.
My question is that I currently have no dealings with Gates so surely it should be the garage that deals with warrantee as they are the party that purchased the components from them. My claim should be with the Garage as that who I have the contract with to initially service my van and therefore make good any issues arising from that work.
I have no intention in bashing them, just making sure I am informed
The garage is being reasonable at the moment, they have said:
If Gates do not honour warrantee then they will pay for repairs and hire car.
If Gates honour warrantee then I will have to claim from Gates direct.
My question is that I currently have no dealings with Gates so surely it should be the garage that deals with warrantee as they are the party that purchased the components from them. My claim should be with the Garage as that who I have the contract with to initially service my van and therefore make good any issues arising from that work.
I have no intention in bashing them, just making sure I am informed
Grumpy,
All the timing components were fitted at the same time so I can only assume it was a kit.
At the time of service when I was advised of the belt and agreed to replace tensioner under there advice. I did ask if water pump was OK as well, I was advised it was fine and no requirment to change.
All the timing components were fitted at the same time so I can only assume it was a kit.
At the time of service when I was advised of the belt and agreed to replace tensioner under there advice. I did ask if water pump was OK as well, I was advised it was fine and no requirment to change.
ADEuk said:
Connects have a chain and a belt. You need to ascertain which failed first. The chain drives the diesel pump from the crank and the pump drives the cam with the belt. If the belt is still intact then it's the chain that's gone
OP has already said the valve train isn't turning eg the belt has either snapped or lost tension.IANAL but you are correct about your contract being with the garage OP, they supplied all the parts to you and you paid them. So, the garage should be repairing any damage caused and sorting the issue out with their suppliers (its unlikely they buy direct from Gates).
Gates were doing some sort of 'insurance' scheme a while back that covered garages for rectification costs even if the technician was at fault so perhaps they have that in place.
Edited by Jimmyarm on Wednesday 4th May 14:14
Edited by Jimmyarm on Wednesday 4th May 14:15
Jimmyarm said:
ADEuk said:
Connects have a chain and a belt. You need to ascertain which failed first. The chain drives the diesel pump from the crank and the pump drives the cam with the belt. If the belt is still intact then it's the chain that's gone
OP has already said the valve train isn't turning eg the belt has either snapped or lost tension.Whilst there may be a collateral contract between you and Gates, you did not supply the parts and even stipulate the make from what you say, so your recourse is as you say, with the garage.
Whatever the outcome, they should be just getting on and fixing this, and if they are stalling for whatever reason, they have to recompense you.
What's is so daft is that if it is the kit that has failed somewhere, it will be about 80 quid to them for a new one and about 1.5 hours to actually fit it, so it begs the question, why are they buggering about and not just getting it fixed, then arguing about it later?
Garage sound like a bunch of nobs tbh.
Whatever the outcome, they should be just getting on and fixing this, and if they are stalling for whatever reason, they have to recompense you.
What's is so daft is that if it is the kit that has failed somewhere, it will be about 80 quid to them for a new one and about 1.5 hours to actually fit it, so it begs the question, why are they buggering about and not just getting it fixed, then arguing about it later?
Garage sound like a bunch of nobs tbh.
britpower100 said:
All,
The garage is being reasonable at the moment, they have said:
If Gates do not honour warrantee then they will pay for repairs and hire car.
If Gates honour warrantee then I will have to claim from Gates direct.
My question is that I currently have no dealings with Gates so surely it should be the garage that deals with warrantee as they are the party that purchased the components from them. My claim should be with the Garage as that who I have the contract with to initially service my van and therefore make good any issues arising from that work.
I have no intention in bashing them, just making sure I am informed
Does it really matter?The garage is being reasonable at the moment, they have said:
If Gates do not honour warrantee then they will pay for repairs and hire car.
If Gates honour warrantee then I will have to claim from Gates direct.
My question is that I currently have no dealings with Gates so surely it should be the garage that deals with warrantee as they are the party that purchased the components from them. My claim should be with the Garage as that who I have the contract with to initially service my van and therefore make good any issues arising from that work.
I have no intention in bashing them, just making sure I am informed
It looks like you won't be out of pocket either way.
Jimmyarm said:
IANAL but you are correct about your contract being with the garage OP, they supplied all the parts to you and you paid them. So, the garage should be repairing any damage caused and sorting the issue out with their suppliers (its unlikely they buy direct from Gates).
Gates were doing some sort of 'insurance' scheme a while back that covered garages for rectification costs even if the technician was at fault so perhaps they have that in place.
Correct, the contract is with the garage, no direct contract with the supplier of the parts.Gates were doing some sort of 'insurance' scheme a while back that covered garages for rectification costs even if the technician was at fault so perhaps they have that in place.
It's the garages problem 100%,THEY did the work,THEY supplied the parts,invoiced you for everything.Who supplied the garage with the parts is not an issue (FOR YOU).
If the cam belt failed,for whatever reason,within 48 hours the garage should hang their head in shame.They must carry out all the repair work free of charge without delay.They should also,if they have any pride in their customer care, provide you with a vehicle while yours is off the road.
When all this is done then the garage should take the matter up with whoever supplied them with the faulty part.This could be someone like GSF or ECP,and they in turn would take it up with Gates.It could go on for ages.
The most important thing is to look after your customer.
The garage could make an insurance claim.They will have public liability cover (cock up ins`)part of their motor traders insurance policy.
A similar situation happened to me when I had my garage.Newly fitted cam belt failed due to faulty part(long story).Engine repaired by me free of charge to customer,cost me a fortune.I then got a full credit for the parts from my supplier,trying for labour etc would have taken forever.So I then made a public liability claim to cover the labour etc and in due course got a cheque to cover it all.These sort of claims do not affect the road risk no claims discount.
If the cam belt failed,for whatever reason,within 48 hours the garage should hang their head in shame.They must carry out all the repair work free of charge without delay.They should also,if they have any pride in their customer care, provide you with a vehicle while yours is off the road.
When all this is done then the garage should take the matter up with whoever supplied them with the faulty part.This could be someone like GSF or ECP,and they in turn would take it up with Gates.It could go on for ages.
The most important thing is to look after your customer.
The garage could make an insurance claim.They will have public liability cover (cock up ins`)part of their motor traders insurance policy.
A similar situation happened to me when I had my garage.Newly fitted cam belt failed due to faulty part(long story).Engine repaired by me free of charge to customer,cost me a fortune.I then got a full credit for the parts from my supplier,trying for labour etc would have taken forever.So I then made a public liability claim to cover the labour etc and in due course got a cheque to cover it all.These sort of claims do not affect the road risk no claims discount.
I,suspect the garage are not ducking the issue they want the belt kit manufacture to advise if it's a component failure or not which is perfectly reasonable as they are the ones with the relevant knowledge of the product. Normally I would think 2 - 3 working days for them to examine
People are right in that you dealt with the garage but they also have the right to have the fault examined by an expert before just repairing, the garage sound sensible don't get too whoop ass too soon and things will go better in my experience
I have had plenty of experience with Gates products and they provide one of the best warranty support processes in the industry, never known them try to get out of a claim.
Normally with belts I would say OEM first but if not possible due to price or availability then Gates would always be my next choice.
People are right in that you dealt with the garage but they also have the right to have the fault examined by an expert before just repairing, the garage sound sensible don't get too whoop ass too soon and things will go better in my experience
I have had plenty of experience with Gates products and they provide one of the best warranty support processes in the industry, never known them try to get out of a claim.
Normally with belts I would say OEM first but if not possible due to price or availability then Gates would always be my next choice.
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