Discussion
Recent changes to a junction local to me have resulted in a double 'roundel' configuration which is all well and good, but there is no mention of the word roundel as terminology specifically for a roundabout in the Highway Code. Why not call them mini-roundabouts to minimise confusion? Would these so called 'roundels' also be treated the same way (strictly speaking legally) as a roundabout in the event of a collision leading to insurance claims etc?
http://westleedsdispatch.com/cycle-superhighway-ci...
http://westleedsdispatch.com/cycle-superhighway-ci...
m4tthew said:
Recent changes to a junction local to me have resulted in a double 'roundel' configuration which is all well and good, but there is no mention of the word roundel as terminology specifically for a roundabout in the Highway Code. Why not call them mini-roundabouts to minimise confusion? Would these so called 'roundels' also be treated the same way (strictly speaking legally) as a roundabout in the event of a collision leading to insurance claims etc?
http://westleedsdispatch.com/cycle-superhighway-ci...
Pic of what this new layout looks like?http://westleedsdispatch.com/cycle-superhighway-ci...
Reading the link, it sounds like it's one of those shared space areas where the whole deliberate point of what few markings there are is to confuse who has "right of way", and make everybody think a little bit harder about what's going on around them. If so, then the "roundels" won't have any legal force - they are just bits of paint on the road to make people think. The link is quite clear that they aren't roundabouts.
On a side issue - 1m13 in the Poynton video on that page. Is that the stupidest bit of hearse parking EVER, or what?
I can't give an answer legally on the roundels, but I do live in Poynton where the scheme referenced has been implemented.
The reality is that 99% (not official statistic) of people navigate them as you would a pair of mini roundabouts and the forced lower approach speed really does seem to increase peoples road awareness and it usually flows well enough. Certainly better than the old ugly traffic light junction despite what some locals would try to have you believe! If you approach the junctions with half a mind on courtesy to your fellow road users, then all works very well.
From a rules of the road perspective, I think you have to look on them like you would an unmarked crossroad. Nobody has more right of way than anyone else. If there were an accident, it's probably going to go 50/50 in all likelihood, unless its clear cut, like some bellend straight lines it at 60 and takes you out.
The reality is that 99% (not official statistic) of people navigate them as you would a pair of mini roundabouts and the forced lower approach speed really does seem to increase peoples road awareness and it usually flows well enough. Certainly better than the old ugly traffic light junction despite what some locals would try to have you believe! If you approach the junctions with half a mind on courtesy to your fellow road users, then all works very well.
From a rules of the road perspective, I think you have to look on them like you would an unmarked crossroad. Nobody has more right of way than anyone else. If there were an accident, it's probably going to go 50/50 in all likelihood, unless its clear cut, like some bellend straight lines it at 60 and takes you out.
From the Highway code on unmarked crossroads: http://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/answers/who-has-pri...
"At an unmarked crossroads no one has priority. If there are no road signs or markings do not assume that you have priority. Remember that other drivers may assume they have the right to go. No type of vehicle has priority but it’s courteous to give way to large vehicles. Also look out in particular for cyclists and motorcyclists."
"At an unmarked crossroads no one has priority. If there are no road signs or markings do not assume that you have priority. Remember that other drivers may assume they have the right to go. No type of vehicle has priority but it’s courteous to give way to large vehicles. Also look out in particular for cyclists and motorcyclists."
m4tthew said:
Recent changes to a junction local to me have resulted in a double 'roundel' configuration which is all well and good, but there is no mention of the word roundel as terminology specifically for a roundabout in the Highway Code. Why not call them mini-roundabouts to minimise confusion? Would these so called 'roundels' also be treated the same way (strictly speaking legally) as a roundabout in the event of a collision leading to insurance claims etc?
http://westleedsdispatch.com/cycle-superhighway-ci...
I get the feeling you live in Pudsey.http://westleedsdispatch.com/cycle-superhighway-ci...
If you do, the one you're talking about also doesn't have any warnings that the road layout has changed either, which has led to some interesting situations I'd bet.
I live in Farsley (for my sins) 
so I come through this junction fairly frequently.
I took a look at the Poynton scheme and noted the following observations in contrast to the system in Stanningley.
- The surfaces are covered with block paving, which to me would give a stronger indication to drivers of it being a "shared area" where you would be more likely to come into contact with pedestrians and other vulnerable road users.
- The roundels themselves are much more clearly defined in the Poynton scheme. I also neglected to mention that the actual roundels in Stanningley are not the same colour as the mockup images for the Stanningley plan.
- The junction at Poynton appears to be spread over a larger area which allows for increased visibility on all approaches.
- All the approach roads to the junction seem to be specifically engineered to give the appearance of being narrow to encourage drivers to slow down.
In terms of visibility for example, you can see from the below link in Stanningley that traffic approaching from the right would have limited visibility:
https://goo.gl/maps/dAmXcFCnsFo
vs Poynton:
https://goo.gl/maps/j3N1AbgyddC2
So while I agree that the scheme is good for the community in general, I think there is still work to do to bring it up to a similar standard as Poynton.
so I come through this junction fairly frequently.I took a look at the Poynton scheme and noted the following observations in contrast to the system in Stanningley.
- The surfaces are covered with block paving, which to me would give a stronger indication to drivers of it being a "shared area" where you would be more likely to come into contact with pedestrians and other vulnerable road users.
- The roundels themselves are much more clearly defined in the Poynton scheme. I also neglected to mention that the actual roundels in Stanningley are not the same colour as the mockup images for the Stanningley plan.
- The junction at Poynton appears to be spread over a larger area which allows for increased visibility on all approaches.
- All the approach roads to the junction seem to be specifically engineered to give the appearance of being narrow to encourage drivers to slow down.
In terms of visibility for example, you can see from the below link in Stanningley that traffic approaching from the right would have limited visibility:
https://goo.gl/maps/dAmXcFCnsFo
vs Poynton:
https://goo.gl/maps/j3N1AbgyddC2
So while I agree that the scheme is good for the community in general, I think there is still work to do to bring it up to a similar standard as Poynton.
I agree, looking at the links you've posted, they are two totally different situations.
The Poynton scheme is only successful because it absolutely changes everything. The road width, surface, kerbs, everything is in complete contrast to the regular roads beforehand. It changes the whole dynamic of approach and like you say, it is very open with great visibility.
I think the restricted visibility at Stanningly could be its undoing from looking on streetview.
The Poynton scheme is only successful because it absolutely changes everything. The road width, surface, kerbs, everything is in complete contrast to the regular roads beforehand. It changes the whole dynamic of approach and like you say, it is very open with great visibility.
I think the restricted visibility at Stanningly could be its undoing from looking on streetview.
All that jazz said:
Any pics of the new road layout there then? I could drive up as it's only 15 mins away but I can't be arsed 
.
We just came through tonight and got a quick shot albeit slightly too late to show the visibility issue. The roundel is definitely clearer than I remember as well, I'm not sure if the wet surfaces are making a difference or I just plain remembered it wrong. Still, you can see the lack of block paving in comparison to Poynton..
Hmm. Will reserve judgement until I have to go that way but looks OK in your pic. In fairness the redesign at Poynton does works well. I've been through there numerous times in an artic since it was done and everyone just works together and we all get where we're going without any drama. That junction in Leeds was always a royal pain in the arse if you wanted to turn right from Pudsey as you could never get out due to people coming from Farsley wanting to turn right up to Pudsey.
Looks like I'm not the only one with reservations, its been featured on BBC Look North this evening 
- https://youtu.be/Y-wOWkjWszw
- https://youtu.be/Y-wOWkjWszwInteresting article on shared spaces http://chrisholmes.co.uk/news/accidents-by-design-...
gobuddygo said:
Interesting article on shared spaces http://chrisholmes.co.uk/news/accidents-by-design-...
Maybe you've linked the wrong article as I don't see anything "interesting" in that one at all. Seems to be nothing more than rehash of what he said before.I think if we rewound the clock 10 or more years before councils decided to install a set of traffic lights every 200 yards on every major and minor road then these shared spaces might have gained some traction but they've left it too late. Because of aforementioned traffic control everywhere people have become accustomed to being told what to do and so when they're faced with these shared spaces they haven't got a clue what to do as it requires one to engage one's brain and that's why they're being labelled as "death traps". I'm willing to take a punt that if they interviewed drivers that drive for a living what they think of them, the answer would be completely different, ie. they have absolutely no issue with them and probably see traffic flow improvements over what it was previously.
All That Jazz - Have you drove through it at night in the pouring rain? or tried to cross the road over the pretend crossings? Death trap might be a bit strong but I think somebody will get killed or seriously injured at that junction, locals will get used to it, others will cause an accident.
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