Hypothetical roundabout crash

[DaveH23]

Say there is a painted roundabout and people aproaching from one side are going round it the wrong way. Not even as far as going over it.

If there was a collision who would be at fault. 1 person hasnt gave way but the other is on the wrong side of the road.

There is one outside my hotel room window and can't believe there hasnt been an accident here.

Will try get a video.

[DaveH23]

Not sure if this link will work.

[Flooble]

That just looks like poor road layout to me, since the cars which are turning right and bypassing the centre of the roundabout are not conflicting with cars turning left and are aligned with the left hand side of the exit road.

I'd say the town planner would be at fault :-)

[Derek Smith]

It used to be my job to decide on prosecutions. The trick, the bloke I replaced told me, is to look at each incident separately.

Roundabouts are generally misunderstood. If a vehicle is already on the roundabout it has priority. You should not do anything to cause the driver of that vehicle to alter course or speed, or not be able to proceed. The give way lines give a direction. A vehicle approaching the roundabout and short of the give way lines is not 'approaching from the right' for the purposes of the Highway Code, or the regs for compliance with the give way lines.

In the video we see a silver estate car already over the lines when both a white van and a blue car cause the driver to stop. Both vehicles fail to accord priority.

The only difference between a mini roundabout and a normal one is that large vehicles can cut across them if it is the only way they can negotiate the roundabout.

It can be difficult to apportion blame in the case of accidents even when one driver is not following the Highway Code or even committing an offence against the regulations. In almost all circs the other person(s) involved have also contributed in some way. So if the estate car driver had just driven forward when seeing the van, knowing that a collision would result, then the question is whether there is a difference in culpability between the two.

So causing another driver to alter course, etc, an offence. An accident: open to argument.

I take your point completely. The behaviour of many drivers at mini roundabouts is asking for an accident.

I went as a witness for one woman. She had crossed the give way lines and then had realised that a car derived van approaching along a road to her right was not going to concede priority. She braked but there was a bumper to bumper collision. The driver of the van was most offensive, getting out and screaming at the woman.

I filled in the statement form sent by the insurance company and pointed out that had the woman not braked the van would probably have hit her at door level.

Knock for knock.

[superlightr]

Derek Smith said:

It used to be my job to decide on prosecutions. The trick, the bloke I replaced told me, is to look at each incident separately.

Roundabouts are generally misunderstood. If a vehicle is already on the roundabout it has priority. You should not do anything to cause the driver of that vehicle to alter course or speed, or not be able to proceed. The give way lines give a direction. A vehicle approaching the roundabout and short of the give way lines is not 'approaching from the right' for the purposes of the Highway Code, or the regs for compliance with the give way lines.

In the video we see a silver estate car already over the lines when both a white van and a blue car cause the driver to stop. Both vehicles fail to accord priority.

The only difference between a mini roundabout and a normal one is that large vehicles can cut across them if it is the only way they can negotiate the roundabout.

It can be difficult to apportion blame in the case of accidents even when one driver is not following the Highway Code or even committing an offence against the regulations. In almost all circs the other person(s) involved have also contributed in some way. So if the estate car driver had just driven forward when seeing the van, knowing that a collision would result, then the question is whether there is a difference in culpability between the two.

So causing another driver to alter course, etc, an offence. An accident: open to argument.

I take your point completely. The behaviour of many drivers at mini roundabouts is asking for an accident.

I went as a witness for one woman. She had crossed the give way lines and then had realised that a car derived van approaching along a road to her right was not going to concede priority. She braked but there was a bumper to bumper collision. The driver of the van was most offensive, getting out and screaming at the woman.

I filled in the statement form sent by the insurance company and pointed out that had the woman not braked the van would probably have hit her at door level.

Knock for knock.

A good & interesting post. Thank you.

With the mini roundabouts what sort of level of going around or attempt at going around would you view as acceptable for a normal car?

ie the drivers side wheels can touch/straddle As in the video that some of the cars/vans made no effort to go around and did not even touch the rab with any wheels which looks like caused some of the conflict of the traffic already on the rab.

[Monty Python]

I'd say the give way line occurs first so takes precedence over the roundabout, so if a car goes through the give way line without stopping and hits someone then it's their fault.

[Al U]

Derek Smith said:

The only difference between a mini roundabout and a normal one is that large vehicles can cut across them if it is the only way they can negotiate the roundabout.

Another difference is that on a mini roundabout you do not signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want to take, particularly when going "straight over".

[Derek Smith]

superlightr said:

A good & interesting post. Thank you.

With the mini roundabouts what sort of level of going around or attempt at going around would you view as acceptable for a normal car?

ie the drivers side wheels can touch/straddle As in the video that some of the cars/vans made no effort to go around and did not even touch the rab with any wheels which looks like caused some of the conflict of the traffic already on the rab.

My apologies for bottling out of answering it, but each case depends on circumstances.

It is unlikely a driver would be prosecuted for running inside wheels over the island. Have an accident and it might, possibly be relevant but it is unlikely. Completely cutting it though, like the van in the video, would have brought my pencil out of its pocket.

[LunarOne]

Here's what happens if you attempt to use a mini-roundabout properly without going over the paint:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dKyEQpE78k

[Grunt Futtock]

Or this which is what happened to me

[Geekman]

Grunt Futtock said:

Or this which is what happened to me

When my mum used to drive, she used to do exactly what you did in that video, i.e. go around the mini roundabout correctly, as stated in the highway code. She, quite rightly, said that the fact that she was indicating meant there was no excuse for cars to pull out, as that van did in your video, and yet it happened to her all the time.

Being a yob who cares little for the rules of the road, I normally cut mini roundabouts unless it obviously isn't safe to do so. I very rarely have people pull out on me like that, because from the second I enter the roundabout, they can immediately tell which way I'm going without being patient and waiting for a second, or having to look at my indicator. I know it's not the right thing to do, but it works for me.

[herewego]

Derek Smith said:

It used to be my job to decide on prosecutions. The trick, the bloke I replaced told me, is to look at each incident separately.

Roundabouts are generally misunderstood. If a vehicle is already on the roundabout it has priority.

I'm a bit surprised by that. My understanding is the highway code only states that we should give way to vehicles approaching from the right

[Derek Smith]

herewego said:

I'm a bit surprised by that. My understanding is the highway code only states that we should give way to vehicles approaching from the right

Headed as 'New Rules'

When reaching a roundabout you should:
Always give priority to the traffic coming from the right, unless you have been directed otherwise by signs, road markings or traffic lights
Check if the road markings allow you to proceed without giving way (always look right before joining just in case)
Watch out for other road users on the roundabout
Check the traffic has moved off in front of you before you proceed to enter the roundabout.

Many drivers appear to think that they have priority over vehicles which are on the roundabout already. They cross the give way lines (if there of course) without worrying if there's a vehicle already on the roundabout in front.

But the regulation is clear. If there are give way lines; no driver will proceed past the give way lines (they are defined) in a manner that puts any road user on the major road in danger, or the driver/rider of a vehicle to change speed or course in order to avoid an accident.

My poorly remembered wording, but close enough to show that the overriding point at a roundabout is the give ways lines. The Highway Code is not of no consequence, but it doesn't override legislation.

The roundabout, i.e. the circle, is the major road.

[donkmeister]

But if everyone obeys the rules then we won't have any dashcam videos of people accelerating hard at roundabouts and then blasting their horn at the bus that was already halfway across before they started

[Zigster]

I know it's not exactly on topic, but this thread did remind me of this Telegraph article about a mini-roundabout near me.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/motoringvideo/...

[DaveH23]

Not sure if this link will work.