Police too busy!
Discussion
Bigends said:
mph1977 said:
La Liga said:
The indirect demand is one most are not aware of.
It's in the news today, once more, that the NHS are struggling with their mental health services. Both in terms of over-spending and sending increasing numbers of patients to other areas.
The amount of 'sectioning' the police have had to do it ever-increasing. It's around 18,000 136s at the moment, which has increased year on year. The College of Policing estimate the ones who go to the police cells (a great place for someone mentally ill) is around 60,000 hours per year (that's based on 1 x 10 hours as opposed to calculating individual officer time as well as custody Sergeant etc).
of course the absence of a s136 equivalent power for Paramedics and Nurses means that if someone will not voluntarily go for assessment and the police are present it becomes either everyone sits around for a Doctor and an AMHP ( who may be a Nurse) to come and start S2 or the police 136 the individual and workign withthe ambulance service transport them to the 136 facility or a general A+E ... It's in the news today, once more, that the NHS are struggling with their mental health services. Both in terms of over-spending and sending increasing numbers of patients to other areas.
The amount of 'sectioning' the police have had to do it ever-increasing. It's around 18,000 136s at the moment, which has increased year on year. The College of Policing estimate the ones who go to the police cells (a great place for someone mentally ill) is around 60,000 hours per year (that's based on 1 x 10 hours as opposed to calculating individual officer time as well as custody Sergeant etc).
S136 requires the opinion of one constable
S2 requires the opinion of an AMHP and 2 Doctors one Psychiatrist and the GP or an S.12 doc
S5 is not appropriate in the community , there is still debate over whether S5 can be used in general hospitals rather than 'common law detention' / DoLS ...
Edited by mph1977 on Monday 23 May 14:34
hora said:
Hmmm surely not true. Surely it's just a case of you can't be bothered and say 'I'm busy'. OP wont believe you..
Of course, we actually listen to all the 999 calls as they come in and laugh about how we dont give a s
t and wont be wasting our time leaving the police station to deal with them..True story!
Greendubber said:
hora said:
Hmmm surely not true. Surely it's just a case of you can't be bothered and say 'I'm busy'. OP wont believe you..
Of course, we actually listen to all the 999 calls as they come in and laugh about how we dont give a st and wont be wasting our time leaving the police station to deal with them..True story!
Greendubber said:
Of course, we actually listen to all the 999 calls as they come in and laugh about how we dont give a st and wont be wasting our time leaving the police station to deal with them..
True story!
When I was in charge of Brighton/Hove/Shoreham (wherever that is) control room one of my jobs was to check through manning levels and report on who was doing what, when and where after complaints about late/not/under resourcing of incidents from the public. This in the late `90s when, according to the government, we had many thousands of officers. That said, in comparison to nowadays we were flooded.t and wont be wasting our time leaving the police station to deal with them..True story!
My first task was to download manning levels. Easy enough. Then what they were assigned to during the relevant period. Easy enough. I'd then list the grade of call as, except in exceptional circumstances, a person attending a Grade 2, non urgent attendance, could not be taken from it to resource another Grade 2.
I used to draft out a letter which included manning levels that shift, available staff at the time, always zero, and the fact that I was under orders not to take a person from an equal grade job to resource another.
I used to include my email address and phone number if they wished to discuss the matter further.
I had a number of people phone up, mainly to apologise for complaining, explaining that they were upset by the incident, that sort of thing. I had stock phrases I would use to put their minds at rest on that score and then chat with them.
I discovered that the stats were removed before forwarding my letter, so these people only had restricted information. The bosses didn't want people to know just how few officers there were at certain times of the day.
That was before the cuts in funding, and therefore manpower, started to bite.
I had an irate SIO of an attempt murder by revolver demand - well, I'm not sure what she wanted, other than to accuse me of not resourcing the job satisfactorily. I did the same with her, showing how we had just the one person to surround the premises the person was thought to be in. Even she said: 'There must have been someone else.'
There was, a custody sergeant who had to bail all prisoners before he could get out. The gaoler was a civvy. I'd even contacted Hants, 'cause this was in Chichester, but they were strapped.
This, remember, in the late 1990s when patrolling manpower was at its height. The good old days when there were so many officers that we could resource lots, but by no means all, urgent jobs.
Tell children today and they won't believe it.
Greendubber said:
I often ask people how many officers they think are on duty and the answer is nearly always 10 x what there actually is.
ditto with A+E ambulances , people don;t get the concept that ambulance stations are empty most ofthe day and if there;s vehicles there for much of the night it;s becasue the NHS still runs PTS in that locality and the PTS trucks are tucked up after their long days and late turn crew(s) have finished the only figure people get right is trumpton , but that's because it's easy to count the trucks as you driver / walk past the station ...
mph1977 said:
Bigends said:
mph1977 said:
La Liga said:
The indirect demand is one most are not aware of.
It's in the news today, once more, that the NHS are struggling with their mental health services. Both in terms of over-spending and sending increasing numbers of patients to other areas.
The amount of 'sectioning' the police have had to do it ever-increasing. It's around 18,000 136s at the moment, which has increased year on year. The College of Policing estimate the ones who go to the police cells (a great place for someone mentally ill) is around 60,000 hours per year (that's based on 1 x 10 hours as opposed to calculating individual officer time as well as custody Sergeant etc).
of course the absence of a s136 equivalent power for Paramedics and Nurses means that if someone will not voluntarily go for assessment and the police are present it becomes either everyone sits around for a Doctor and an AMHP ( who may be a Nurse) to come and start S2 or the police 136 the individual and workign withthe ambulance service transport them to the 136 facility or a general A+E ... It's in the news today, once more, that the NHS are struggling with their mental health services. Both in terms of over-spending and sending increasing numbers of patients to other areas.
The amount of 'sectioning' the police have had to do it ever-increasing. It's around 18,000 136s at the moment, which has increased year on year. The College of Policing estimate the ones who go to the police cells (a great place for someone mentally ill) is around 60,000 hours per year (that's based on 1 x 10 hours as opposed to calculating individual officer time as well as custody Sergeant etc).
S136 requires the opinion of one constable
S2 requires the opinion of an AMHP and 2 Doctors one Psychiatrist and the GP or an S.12 doc
S5 is not appropriate in the community , there is still debate over whether S5 can be used in general hospitals rather than 'common law detention' / DoLS ...
Edited by mph1977 on Monday 23 May 14:34
Edited by Bigends on Monday 23 May 16:33
Greendubber said:
I often ask people how many officers they think are on duty and the answer is nearly always 10 x what there actually is.
I was Ops 1, the bloke in charge of the Force Control Room, and some inspired superintendent had decided that as he couldn't be bothered to do his job, and operational officer should show the Eastbourne Round Table what the control room does on a Tuesday evening.So for two hours, less the time to get them all together and up to the lecture theatre, I chatted to this group of well positive people about my role.
We had a new bit of software and hardware and I could show current operations, including the serial list, in real time on a large screen. I wanted to play with it, and so did they.
I showed them the various lists and such and then the inevitable question came: could I show them Eastbourne only. From the point of view of someone who never wanted to be asked again, this was gold.
So I ran up the unassigned list. No one.
I then ran up the list being serviced: there was one grade one with two units assigned, and a grade two with the motorcyclist dealing.
I then ran up the outstanding, a couple from the early afternoon.
"Where is everyone? Having refreshments?" Good question and I could point out that none of the on-duty officers had had their refs and it appeared they would not during the shift.
"They eat when doing their paperwork," I told them.
I then ran up the duty sheet for the night shift: two patrolling officers plus the custody sergeant. They were awestruck.
"What if there's an important job?" So I said I'd look to other divisions for assistance. I ran up Hastings: two units, both assigned, one to a Grade 1.
There was an incident which required my response so for 10 minutes we followed a job until there was the arrest, this in Brighton.
I was hauled over to the command suite on my next set of days to be told by ACC Ops no less that I had caused HQ all sorts of problems, with the RT demanding to know about resourcing, and that I would never be allowed to show anyone around comms again. So a result on two levels.
Good fun.
Bigends said:
Yes I know. They operate a triage system and at least get the ball rolling and have the skills to assess and contact the appropriate resources if 136 isnt appropriate and can provide the proper information from the scene rather than officers guessing what may be wrong and what actions may be necessary. Theyll always attend with an officer, so the One Constable opinion is also present. Theyll advise as to most appropriate course of action
which was the point I was raising - s136 can offer the easiest way to achieve the assessment ( s136 , quick ambulance / van ride to the local psych unit / A+E start S.2 there ) vs trying to get the two docs out ( although having a AMHP working with the police can speed that up and counter some of the personal safety issues as outside of hospital assessments crisis team will often pair up for acute assessments )Edited by Bigends on Monday 23 May 16:33
bmw535i said:
Well at least West Midlands Police had the decency to apologise for not intervening the two robberies instead of trying to justify their negligence by dripping about how little men they had.
I don't think anyone has suggested that the dropping of the height limit for police officers is the cause. bmw535i said:
Derek Smith said:
I don't think anyone has suggested that the dropping of the height limit for police officers is the cause.
True, could just be the fat ones then?The report that 60% of officers were too fat to perform their role was made up by the media, under some encouragement from the government.
Next you'll be telling us that the money in the Federation coffers was taxpayers' and not from free contributions of members.
bmw535i said:
Your analogy regarding the infantry being cut: The Army has reduced in size considerably - we are still expected to carry out all the duties we are given. These increase continually. I'm sure you've heard of Op Temperor - basically backfilling armed police in the event of a terrorist attack.
We cover fire strikes, foot and mouth, floods, olympics the list goes on. It doesn't mean we can just mug work off like the police I've experienced do.
With the current state of the UK Armed Forces, if Argentina were to undertake another invasion of the Falkland Islands I doubt there is much we could do about it without active military assistance from the United States. And that simply isn't going to happen. I don't think a Trident missile strike on Buenos Aires quite cuts the mustard either.We cover fire strikes, foot and mouth, floods, olympics the list goes on. It doesn't mean we can just mug work off like the police I've experienced do.
As for the police, the number of disgraced Chief Constables beggars belief. It reminds me of WW1 Generals sending millions to die in the trenches. I feel sorry for front line officers faced with the daily struggle against the rising tide.
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