Police too busy!
Discussion
mph1977 said:
La Liga said:
The indirect demand is one most are not aware of.
It's in the news today, once more, that the NHS are struggling with their mental health services. Both in terms of over-spending and sending increasing numbers of patients to other areas.
The amount of 'sectioning' the police have had to do it ever-increasing. It's around 18,000 136s at the moment, which has increased year on year. The College of Policing estimate the ones who go to the police cells (a great place for someone mentally ill) is around 60,000 hours per year (that's based on 1 x 10 hours as opposed to calculating individual officer time as well as custody Sergeant etc).
of course the absence of a s136 equivalent power for Paramedics and Nurses means that if someone will not voluntarily go for assessment and the police are present it becomes either everyone sits around for a Doctor and an AMHP ( who may be a Nurse) to come and start S2 or the police 136 the individual and workign withthe ambulance service transport them to the 136 facility or a general A+E ... It's in the news today, once more, that the NHS are struggling with their mental health services. Both in terms of over-spending and sending increasing numbers of patients to other areas.
The amount of 'sectioning' the police have had to do it ever-increasing. It's around 18,000 136s at the moment, which has increased year on year. The College of Policing estimate the ones who go to the police cells (a great place for someone mentally ill) is around 60,000 hours per year (that's based on 1 x 10 hours as opposed to calculating individual officer time as well as custody Sergeant etc).
jamesson said:
REALIST123 said:
You imply a 2/3 reduction in numbers? Since when?
The truth is that there aren't that many less police officers than ten years ago, though the number increased up to around 2010 then declined.
2010 143000
2015 126000
About 12% from a peak figure, which should be manageable given technological improvements.
Hardly going into battle "only suddenly to find you have a third of the infantry you used to have".
Where I work, in the last six or seven years we have gone from three police stations putting out around a total of 36 response officers to one station which puts out around 12. It should be a minimum of 18 but that rarely happens. 10-12 is the norm.The truth is that there aren't that many less police officers than ten years ago, though the number increased up to around 2010 then declined.
2010 143000
2015 126000
About 12% from a peak figure, which should be manageable given technological improvements.
Hardly going into battle "only suddenly to find you have a third of the infantry you used to have".
<snip>.
Who me said:
Rovinghawk- read both statements together and ask if I'm agreeing with you.
I'm agreeing but phrasing it in a backhanded manner.La Liga- my experience of this form of financial control is that it's exactly the same as student Athletic Unions. It's a bad system for the reasons I mentioned earlier. If you think it's a good system then please tell me why.
As much as this pains, as it is akin to agreeing with the Daily Mail, it's not a good system.
It used to be, we used to have a buildings manager for each area. He is she had a fixed budget and knew what it had to cover. In hour staff did maintenance and cleaning, outside contractors did more specialised/bigger jobs. The manger had a direct control of costs and a priority list of things that must, should, be nice to do.
Guess what? We sacked them to save money.
Nobody thought this was a good idea who worked at the sites.
We are left with private companies running the sites for profit. Why the f
k there should be profit available from tax monies I'm unsure, but it's allowed. Last month they came and fixed all the computer cabling to the undersides of desks. This month they replaced the desks, where are the cables? On the floor again.
Still, I'm sure this will be the Police Officers fault somewhere along the line.
It used to be, we used to have a buildings manager for each area. He is she had a fixed budget and knew what it had to cover. In hour staff did maintenance and cleaning, outside contractors did more specialised/bigger jobs. The manger had a direct control of costs and a priority list of things that must, should, be nice to do.
Guess what? We sacked them to save money.
Nobody thought this was a good idea who worked at the sites.
We are left with private companies running the sites for profit. Why the f
k there should be profit available from tax monies I'm unsure, but it's allowed. Last month they came and fixed all the computer cabling to the undersides of desks. This month they replaced the desks, where are the cables? On the floor again. Still, I'm sure this will be the Police Officers fault somewhere along the line.
XCP said:
I wish I could have got all my 136's done and dusted in under 4 hours!!
Or am I misreading the stats. Average time under 4 hours per customer??!!
I don't think I made it clear. Or am I misreading the stats. Average time under 4 hours per customer??!!
There were around 18,000 136s overall. 12,000 went to places other than custody, 6000 went to custody. The average custody time was 10 hours which is where the 60,000 hours comes from.
That's how I work it from the College of Policing data.
mph1977 said:
La Liga said:
The indirect demand is one most are not aware of.
It's in the news today, once more, that the NHS are struggling with their mental health services. Both in terms of over-spending and sending increasing numbers of patients to other areas.
The amount of 'sectioning' the police have had to do it ever-increasing. It's around 18,000 136s at the moment, which has increased year on year. The College of Policing estimate the ones who go to the police cells (a great place for someone mentally ill) is around 60,000 hours per year (that's based on 1 x 10 hours as opposed to calculating individual officer time as well as custody Sergeant etc).
of course the absence of a s136 equivalent power for Paramedics and Nurses means that if someone will not voluntarily go for assessment and the police are present it becomes either everyone sits around for a Doctor and an AMHP ( who may be a Nurse) to come and start S2 or the police 136 the individual and workign withthe ambulance service transport them to the 136 facility or a general A+E ... It's in the news today, once more, that the NHS are struggling with their mental health services. Both in terms of over-spending and sending increasing numbers of patients to other areas.
The amount of 'sectioning' the police have had to do it ever-increasing. It's around 18,000 136s at the moment, which has increased year on year. The College of Policing estimate the ones who go to the police cells (a great place for someone mentally ill) is around 60,000 hours per year (that's based on 1 x 10 hours as opposed to calculating individual officer time as well as custody Sergeant etc).
Rovinghawk said:
La Liga- my experience of this form of financial control is that it's exactly the same as student Athletic Unions. It's a bad system for the reasons I mentioned earlier. If you think it's a good system then please tell me why.
You weren't talking about the system, you were talking about it being 'managed properly' as opposed to 'blaming a lack of resources': Rovinghawk said:
This isn't government so much as delegated branches of the Home Office, ie the various police forces. In the same way as the rest of the public sector, their budgets would go much further if properly managed but they prefer instead to blame lack of resources.
It can only be internally managed within the confines of the external structures and limitations, which were created, imposed and sustained by previous governments / the current one. That's a separate matter to resourcing. La Liga said:
It can only be internally managed within the confines of the external structures and limitations, which were created, imposed and sustained by previous governments / the current one. That's a separate matter to resourcing.
It's bad management of the resources regardless of who's doing the managing.The system is bad and needs changing; this will allow the resources to be used better.
Greendubber said:
The Mad Monk said:
No. Not so.
As someone who has seen it first hand I dont agree with you. One wonders if he knows it all when it comes to a plumber installing central heating or an electrician rewiring the house. In fact I don't wonder. He'd keep his mouth shut there as he knows his ignorance might have a negative effect. Here he can suggest that reducing the budget by well over 20% has no effect on man power and stand by his prejudice even when those who know what they are talking about put the correct view.
Greendubber said:
The Mad Monk said:
No. Not so.
As someone who has seen it first hand I dont agree with you. Greendubber said:
The Mad Monk said:
No. Not so.
As someone who has seen it first hand I dont agree with you. If you think it means 'to reduce by 10%' then you are right, she/he/they have.
If you think it means 'to reduce to 10%' then you are wrong, she/he/they haven't.
Elroy Blue said:
Greendubber said:
The Mad Monk said:
No. Not so.
As someone who has seen it first hand I dont agree with you. I have asked long serving coppers how much they enjoyed their time in the police service. A fairly typical response was along the lines 'The first 15 years, I loved it. The last 15 years I hated it'.
The Mad Monk said:
It depends upon your definition of the verb 'to decimate'.
If you think it means 'to reduce by 10%' then you are right, she/he/they have.
If you think it means 'to reduce to 10%' then you are wrong, she/he/they haven't.
Well my old team of 40 cant parade any more than 15 now, all single crewed on a response shift. If you think it means 'to reduce by 10%' then you are right, she/he/they have.
If you think it means 'to reduce to 10%' then you are wrong, she/he/they haven't.
My partners team (CID) only has 4 on it, minimum staffing is 9.
My department used to be 30, down to 14 now.
Custody used to have 3 custody sgts, only 1 now
The police are sinking, something May wont admit. We cant even get annual leave authorised, mandatory training has been pulled as the force cant afford the abstractions, rest days cancelled to cover protests or football matches.
Maybe I'm imagining it but it appears to be a lot more than 10%.....
Greendubber said:
Well my old team of 40 cant parade any more than 15 now, all single crewed on a response shift.
My partners team (CID) only has 4 on it, minimum staffing is 9.
My department used to be 30, down to 14 now.
Custody used to have 3 custody sgts, only 1 now
The police are sinking, something May wont admit. We cant even get annual leave authorised, mandatory training has been pulled as the force cant afford the abstractions, rest days cancelled to cover protests or football matches.
Maybe I'm imagining it but it appears to be a lot more than 10%.....
Do you also hear a neighbourhood division asking for help to attend a grade one on their patch? OP wouldn't know that either.My partners team (CID) only has 4 on it, minimum staffing is 9.
My department used to be 30, down to 14 now.
Custody used to have 3 custody sgts, only 1 now
The police are sinking, something May wont admit. We cant even get annual leave authorised, mandatory training has been pulled as the force cant afford the abstractions, rest days cancelled to cover protests or football matches.
Maybe I'm imagining it but it appears to be a lot more than 10%.....
I was sent a full witness order, this years after I retired, and so phoned the regional crime squad, as was, to chat with the SIO. It was a series of armed robberies with a shooting on the one I'd been involved in, the victim coming on the ID parade with a crutch as he'd been shot in the knee at short range by a shotgun with a five-shot cartridge. There were other shootings. So a series of very serious crimes.
I was surprised to be put through to a DC as the SIO. I asked her if it was normal for a DC to be in charge of such a series of crimes, and she said murders were run by DCs. There just wasn't any staff. Jobs were being sent to the RCS and being returned to division as they could not deal and they were being shelved for the same reason.
Staff would be called back to force and not replaced yet the number of files coming in increased. Jobs with prisoners - these are serious crimes - were being ignored as staff were either working on current crimes or called into court to sit for days.
I talked to as ex DS about this and he said that they used to throw a celebration party when selected for the RCS, now they had them when they were leaving. A bit of a joke but with more than a grain of truth.
My force more often than not musters fewer officers than the absolute minimum when mutual aid was sent to the London riots. Not only that, but they are doing paperwork as the civvy staff have all been sacked.
So much easier to remain in ignorance of the true state of the police service so that you can moan about it.
There was something from the Home Office sent round the NARPO lads asking if they would be prepared to turn out as Specials if there were other riots. So next time London's burning, Sussex will be policed by under-Specials who have to stop every 20 mins for a pee. As one of the committee of our local NARPO said, the first thing we all talk about at meetings are our hospital treatments.
Mind you, most of us agreed that we probably would do something despite the fact that the government can't be bothered as we always did before.
What it shows, though, is that the government knows full well that the police can't cope but are just crossing their fingers hoping that nothing happens before the next elections.
I was surprised to be put through to a DC as the SIO. I asked her if it was normal for a DC to be in charge of such a series of crimes, and she said murders were run by DCs. There just wasn't any staff. Jobs were being sent to the RCS and being returned to division as they could not deal and they were being shelved for the same reason.
Staff would be called back to force and not replaced yet the number of files coming in increased. Jobs with prisoners - these are serious crimes - were being ignored as staff were either working on current crimes or called into court to sit for days.
I talked to as ex DS about this and he said that they used to throw a celebration party when selected for the RCS, now they had them when they were leaving. A bit of a joke but with more than a grain of truth.
My force more often than not musters fewer officers than the absolute minimum when mutual aid was sent to the London riots. Not only that, but they are doing paperwork as the civvy staff have all been sacked.
So much easier to remain in ignorance of the true state of the police service so that you can moan about it.
There was something from the Home Office sent round the NARPO lads asking if they would be prepared to turn out as Specials if there were other riots. So next time London's burning, Sussex will be policed by under-Specials who have to stop every 20 mins for a pee. As one of the committee of our local NARPO said, the first thing we all talk about at meetings are our hospital treatments.
Mind you, most of us agreed that we probably would do something despite the fact that the government can't be bothered as we always did before.
What it shows, though, is that the government knows full well that the police can't cope but are just crossing their fingers hoping that nothing happens before the next elections.
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