Police too busy!
Discussion
Greendubber said:
What shift pattern would you suggest?
I remember asking him last time he mentioned shift patterns. You'll be amazed, I'm sure, to hear no suggestion was forthcoming. V6Pushfit said:
La Liga said:
he police need to available 24/7 and the shift patterns reflect this and are mathematically based around demand. The opposite of ludicrous.
4 early shifts 4 late shifts and 4 days off. Great for a factory but totally useless otherwise and doesn't help with appalling communication.
A completely inefficient and disorganised muddle.
If you've not seen the analysis (I presume you haven't) how can you conclude it's 'completely inefficient'?
V6Pushfit said:
Example: waiting for a phone call from bib (for confirmation of forensic visit) missed call but it came through as usual as unknown number with no message. So can't phone back without half an hour going through the usual system and being told the case officer is on leave till next week they don't know who rang. Then 4 days later after more phone calls another officer says case notes say forensics aren't coming after all ('not worth it unlikely to yield results etc'). Then 3 days later forensics appear out of the blue and are surprised we aren't expecting them.
What does any of that have to do with shift patterns?bmw535i said:
Did you? I can't see that anywhere. I also asked if any officers who had been fired for this reason would be replaced. I don't see an answer for that either.
The annual fitness test with consequences for failure is new so I don't think there's been time for anyone to go through the process fully yet. Any officer leaving for any reason contributes to the on-going assessment for recruitment.
V6Pushfit said:
^ it's totally inefficient that's my point. The Police have made themselves remote, uncontactable, and keen on avoiding. All the stations are closed around here so it's pretty much lawless.
How's it 'totally inefficient' when it'll be designed around demand and available resources? You can't just say 'totally inefficient' and it be so. Especially to those who actually know what they are talking about.
V6Pushfit said:
^ it's totally inefficient that's my point. The Police have made themselves remote, uncontactable, and keen on avoiding. All the stations are closed around here so it's pretty much lawless.
Amazing. The stations have closed because there's no bloody money to keep them open. That's not the fault of the Police. (Writing this on a day off after four straight 14-15hr shifts. Lazy bugger me)
V6Pushfit said:
^ it's totally inefficient that's my point.
You are conflating "inefficient" with "under-staffed", which is wrong, they are two completely different things.Running a remote station with police sitting there doing nothing (or very little) is inefficient.
Being forced to close a busy station owing to lack of staff is under-staffing.
V6Pushfit said:
^ it's totally inefficient that's my point. The Police have made themselves remote, uncontactable, and keen on avoiding. All the stations are closed around here so it's pretty much lawless.
So to answer the question, as you assert it's so inefficient, what alternative shift/working patterns would you suggest. You are clearly in "the know" so to speak, based on your comments.Shift patterns - its not up to me but I think the shift patterns are a hangover of bygone days, probably negotiated by the unions with a view to maximising incomes. I would be interested to see what happens with a 5 day week day and night shift alternating every 2 weeks with very second weekend.
To look at it from the public side its a nightmare dealing with Attending Officer A on Monday morning, to find hes off in the afternoon so contact him Tuesday to find hes off Wednesday for 4 days so cant get involved, then have to contact Officer B who needs briefing and then contact them again Wednesday morning to find that they are not in as doing late shifts from Tuesday so contact Wednesday afternoon to be told he's given the case to Officer C who is on the last day before 4 days off and nothing is progressed form the case notes, so Officer D gets involved but by then Officer A is nearly back so there's no point in Officer D doing anything. Officer A gets back but no one knows his shift but eventually he does something - gives it to Officer E who is on earlies but on the last day of these.....and on it went with no one taking ownership or progressing.
As I said before this particular case was substantial cash theft and it took 13 weeks to interview the two suspects by which time one had left the country anyway. They were only interviewed when the Superintendant got involved, and he said he was ashamed of the way the case had been handled. All this and Officers A to D had still not investigated anything at all, not even looked up the plate of the car involved and details given to them in the first minute of attending. We were told they would look at the suspects mobile phones and that was retracted and told they would visit the suspects at home and that never happened. After the interview Officer E (who had no knowledge of the case) visited us for 3 hours in an attempt to close the case as the suspect had 'seemed innocent' at interview' - not based on anything other than the views of the interviewing officer (Officer F who also had no prior involvement). We had no choice other than to agree to close it and I doubt it ever went on record that it was an unsolved crime.
And all this with only us ringing the police, as all incoming calls to us were 'unknown number', navigating through recorded messages and menus the first of which was if we wanted to book a custody suite. How many calls a day from the public have booking a custody suite as the priority??
To look at it from the public side its a nightmare dealing with Attending Officer A on Monday morning, to find hes off in the afternoon so contact him Tuesday to find hes off Wednesday for 4 days so cant get involved, then have to contact Officer B who needs briefing and then contact them again Wednesday morning to find that they are not in as doing late shifts from Tuesday so contact Wednesday afternoon to be told he's given the case to Officer C who is on the last day before 4 days off and nothing is progressed form the case notes, so Officer D gets involved but by then Officer A is nearly back so there's no point in Officer D doing anything. Officer A gets back but no one knows his shift but eventually he does something - gives it to Officer E who is on earlies but on the last day of these.....and on it went with no one taking ownership or progressing.
As I said before this particular case was substantial cash theft and it took 13 weeks to interview the two suspects by which time one had left the country anyway. They were only interviewed when the Superintendant got involved, and he said he was ashamed of the way the case had been handled. All this and Officers A to D had still not investigated anything at all, not even looked up the plate of the car involved and details given to them in the first minute of attending. We were told they would look at the suspects mobile phones and that was retracted and told they would visit the suspects at home and that never happened. After the interview Officer E (who had no knowledge of the case) visited us for 3 hours in an attempt to close the case as the suspect had 'seemed innocent' at interview' - not based on anything other than the views of the interviewing officer (Officer F who also had no prior involvement). We had no choice other than to agree to close it and I doubt it ever went on record that it was an unsolved crime.
And all this with only us ringing the police, as all incoming calls to us were 'unknown number', navigating through recorded messages and menus the first of which was if we wanted to book a custody suite. How many calls a day from the public have booking a custody suite as the priority??
Edited by V6Pushfit on Thursday 26th May 10:11
V6Pushfit said:
Shift patterns - its not up to me but I think the shift patterns are a hangover of bygone days, probably negotiated by the unions with a view to maximising incomes. I would be interested to see what happens with a 5 day week day and night shift alternating every 2 weeks with very second weekend.
What unions would those be??Edited by V6Pushfit on Thursday 26th May 10:11
Maximising incomes? How's that then? We don't get extra for working weekends.
I'd be quite happy working a five day week with no shifts. I might be able to spend time with my family ang get to the odd birthday or parents evening. I've had three Christman days at home in over twenty years. As it is, I work 12+hrs night shifts dealing with pissed up people coming out of nightclubs, persistent missing persons, mental health and occasionally I even get to deal with crime.
Policing is not mon-fri 9x5.
bmw535i said:
I asked a question regarding 5700 absentees in 2015. It seems a proportion of these are on suspension.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/2015/03/the-shocking-tr...
How long does an officer face being suspended for if they are accused of, let's say, theft?
how long is a piece of string ? depends how long it takes for the criminal offence to come to court and after court how long it takes the service to convene the discip ... http://www.spectator.co.uk/2015/03/the-shocking-tr...
How long does an officer face being suspended for if they are accused of, let's say, theft?
I suspect you won't like the answer regardless
and I suspect you won't get the irony of the 'need' to suspend people due to pressure from curtain twitchers ...
V6Pushfit said:
^ it's totally inefficient that's my point. The Police have made themselves remote, uncontactable, and keen on avoiding. All the stations are closed around here so it's pretty much lawless.
ah the fallacy ofthe presence of Police ( and ambulance) statiosn contributing to the service as has been pointed out contacting police Officers has never been easier ( about the only ways i could think of making it easier would be a transparent alias system for voice mail and email where if you know their collar number you can message them ...
V6Pushfit said:
Shift patterns - its not up to me but I think the shift patterns are a hangover of bygone days, probably negotiated by the unions with a view to maximising incomes. I would be interested to see what happens with a 5 day week day and night shift alternating every 2 weeks with very second weekend.
To look at it from the public side its a nightmare dealing with Attending Officer A on Monday morning, to find hes off in the afternoon so contact him Tuesday to find hes off Wednesday for 4 days so cant get involved, then have to contact Officer B who needs briefing and then contact them again Wednesday morning to find that they are not in as doing late shifts from Tuesday so contact Wednesday afternoon to be told he's given the case to Officer C who is on the last day before 4 days off and nothing is progressed form the case notes, so Officer D gets involved but by then Officer A is nearly back so there's no point in Officer D doing anything. Officer A gets back but no one knows his shift but eventually he does something - gives it to Officer E who is on earlies but on the last day of these.....and on it went with no one taking ownership or progressing.
As I said before this particular case was substantial cash theft and it took 13 weeks to interview the two suspects by which time one had left the country anyway. They were only interviewed when the Superintendant got involved, and he said he was ashamed of the way the case had been handled. All this and Officers A to D had still not investigated anything at all, not even looked up the plate of the car involved and details given to them in the first minute of attending. We were told they would look at the suspects mobile phones and that was retracted and told they would visit the suspects at home and that never happened. After the interview Officer E (who had no knowledge of the case) visited us for 3 hours in an attempt to close the case as the suspect had 'seemed innocent' at interview' - not based on anything other than the views of the interviewing officer (Officer F who also had no prior involvement). We had no choice other than to agree to close it and I doubt it ever went on record that it was an unsolved crime.
And all this with only us ringing the police, as all incoming calls to us were 'unknown number', navigating through recorded messages and menus the first of which was if we wanted to book a custody suite. How many calls a day from the public have booking a custody suite as the priority??
wah wah wah all police officers aren;t automata avaialble 24/7 at my whim To look at it from the public side its a nightmare dealing with Attending Officer A on Monday morning, to find hes off in the afternoon so contact him Tuesday to find hes off Wednesday for 4 days so cant get involved, then have to contact Officer B who needs briefing and then contact them again Wednesday morning to find that they are not in as doing late shifts from Tuesday so contact Wednesday afternoon to be told he's given the case to Officer C who is on the last day before 4 days off and nothing is progressed form the case notes, so Officer D gets involved but by then Officer A is nearly back so there's no point in Officer D doing anything. Officer A gets back but no one knows his shift but eventually he does something - gives it to Officer E who is on earlies but on the last day of these.....and on it went with no one taking ownership or progressing.
As I said before this particular case was substantial cash theft and it took 13 weeks to interview the two suspects by which time one had left the country anyway. They were only interviewed when the Superintendant got involved, and he said he was ashamed of the way the case had been handled. All this and Officers A to D had still not investigated anything at all, not even looked up the plate of the car involved and details given to them in the first minute of attending. We were told they would look at the suspects mobile phones and that was retracted and told they would visit the suspects at home and that never happened. After the interview Officer E (who had no knowledge of the case) visited us for 3 hours in an attempt to close the case as the suspect had 'seemed innocent' at interview' - not based on anything other than the views of the interviewing officer (Officer F who also had no prior involvement). We had no choice other than to agree to close it and I doubt it ever went on record that it was an unsolved crime.
And all this with only us ringing the police, as all incoming calls to us were 'unknown number', navigating through recorded messages and menus the first of which was if we wanted to book a custody suite. How many calls a day from the public have booking a custody suite as the priority??
Edited by V6Pushfit on Thursday 26th May 10:11
as for contacting custody - I suspect a fair few people who ring police HQs would like to be put in touch with a custody suite to enquire after their freind or relative who has been arrested ...
mph1977 said:
how long is a piece of string ? depends how long it takes for the criminal offence to come to court and after court how long it takes the service to convene the discip ...
I suspect you won't like the answer regardless
and I suspect you won't get the irony of the 'need' to suspend people due to pressure from curtain twitchers ...
I think they should be dismissed instantly I suspect you won't like the answer regardless
and I suspect you won't get the irony of the 'need' to suspend people due to pressure from curtain twitchers ...
bmw535i said:
mph1977 said:
how long is a piece of string ? depends how long it takes for the criminal offence to come to court and after court how long it takes the service to convene the discip ...
I suspect you won't like the answer regardless
and I suspect you won't get the irony of the 'need' to suspend people due to pressure from curtain twitchers ...
I think they should be dismissed instantly I suspect you won't like the answer regardless
and I suspect you won't get the irony of the 'need' to suspend people due to pressure from curtain twitchers ...
any employer who dismisses staff on the basis of an unproven criminal allegation opens themselves to a word of legal s
t plus of course the risks related to malicious and false allegations ...
Speaking with a Northern force last year they usually had two officers covering well over 1000 square miles including a number of towns. they commented that if the ratepayers and more affluent areas knew that there would be uproar.
Rightly or wrongly it gives the impression of seat of the pants stuff.
There's a local couple here I know who were attacked on a quiet Sunday walk by a female drug addict and all caught on CCTV, and a witness knew her. Broken collarbone and stitches to arms of both. 10 days later the victims were told the bib didn't know who the attacker was (yet the witness had given bib full details at the time). Bib hadnt looked any further into it. Eventually the victims had to make big efforts to push for updates and were then told no further action was being taken 'as the attacker was known to them and had children so any action against her would risk children into care'. Victims advised to take court action themselves, which they are now doing.
Rightly or wrongly it gives the impression of seat of the pants stuff.
There's a local couple here I know who were attacked on a quiet Sunday walk by a female drug addict and all caught on CCTV, and a witness knew her. Broken collarbone and stitches to arms of both. 10 days later the victims were told the bib didn't know who the attacker was (yet the witness had given bib full details at the time). Bib hadnt looked any further into it. Eventually the victims had to make big efforts to push for updates and were then told no further action was being taken 'as the attacker was known to them and had children so any action against her would risk children into care'. Victims advised to take court action themselves, which they are now doing.
Fane said:
Dibble said:
/snip... So just to remind the OP, for those 250,000 people, how many officers do you think were on duty between 2200 and 0700 (including traffic, firearms and dogs).
A thought provoking response, Dibble. I'm interested - 100?assuming no particular call on numbers to be abstracted ...
Edited by mph1977 on Thursday 26th May 18:35
V6Pushfit said:
Shift patterns - its not up to me but I think the shift patterns are a hangover of bygone days, probably negotiated by the unions with a view to maximising incomes. I would be interested to see what happens with a 5 day week day and night shift alternating every 2 weeks with very second weekend.
You're criticising shift patterns and then suggesting one in the same paragraph. - A 5 day week means 8 hour shifts.
- Alternating between nights and days means you only have 16 hours of the day covered (with no overlap).
What happens to the rest?
I think that'd be enough to shoot that one down, but I'll add you've grossly under-weighted weekend cover so are not aligning resources to demand.
50% weekend working isn't sufficient. For example a lot of patterns will have officers working 70% of weekends (not necessarily both Saturday and Sunday) to meet (or try to meet) demand, to give you an idea of the disproportionate amount of weekend demand. Weekends have higher demand for things like annual leave, too.
Can we start with a pattern which actually covers 24/7 - assuming you actually acknowledge this is necessary, or hopefully of fundamental importance.
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