Police too busy!
Discussion
Even if nobody was able to attend there should at least have been welfare calls to the original caller - anything could have happened after he'd made the original call. Theres no way this should have gone on for two hours without some contact being made. Control room supervisors will have some questions to answer
davemac250 said:
As a more serious response and Derek may like to know this given his past in Control rooms.
The Met are redesigning their call response gradings. The force is unable to meet its charter times on Soonest/Standard response grade calls - those to be attended within an hour.
Control will now offer two response grades.
Immediate - those got to in under 15 minutes, and which is a generally met target with 90% attended within charter.
And everything else. No times. Just being abandoned.
Case Progression Units are being disbanded. Relief PC's will keep their own investigations.
CID remits being reduced at the same time, they will no longer investigate robberies, burglaries or fraud. These will fall to the uniform teams. The case loads on detectives are deemed too high. This means response officers will no longer drop off and go back on patrol, they will be tied up for hours. Only if the investigation is 'likely' to take over 80 hours will it be able to be handed over.
A re-think on the number of custody suites is due. With closures planned. Most Friday and Saturday evenings they are already full. That won't be an issue as there will be no officers outside the station in any case.
Case preparation staff have already gone. Officers now do all the paperwork, whereas for years there was back office staff doing that. It's been a big hit on officer time.
The volume of crimes is going up. The call numbers are increasing, steadily. Officer numbers and certainly officer experience is decreasing.
To the poster mentioning budgets - all stake holders hold back funds till the end of the budget year and then spend. It's use it or lose it. And once it's gone from your yearly budget you have no room to cover the 'what ifs'. But you know that, but nothing beats a cheap shot....
Scary. Officers being removed from paperwork was something that progressed throughout my career. I was in charge of a unit that did case prep. My staff, all but my deputy were civvies, were so much faster than I could have been and (irritatingly) made fewer mistakes. They were half the price of police officers. The skills the Job is losing.The Met are redesigning their call response gradings. The force is unable to meet its charter times on Soonest/Standard response grade calls - those to be attended within an hour.
Control will now offer two response grades.
Immediate - those got to in under 15 minutes, and which is a generally met target with 90% attended within charter.
And everything else. No times. Just being abandoned.
Case Progression Units are being disbanded. Relief PC's will keep their own investigations.
CID remits being reduced at the same time, they will no longer investigate robberies, burglaries or fraud. These will fall to the uniform teams. The case loads on detectives are deemed too high. This means response officers will no longer drop off and go back on patrol, they will be tied up for hours. Only if the investigation is 'likely' to take over 80 hours will it be able to be handed over.
A re-think on the number of custody suites is due. With closures planned. Most Friday and Saturday evenings they are already full. That won't be an issue as there will be no officers outside the station in any case.
Case preparation staff have already gone. Officers now do all the paperwork, whereas for years there was back office staff doing that. It's been a big hit on officer time.
The volume of crimes is going up. The call numbers are increasing, steadily. Officer numbers and certainly officer experience is decreasing.
To the poster mentioning budgets - all stake holders hold back funds till the end of the budget year and then spend. It's use it or lose it. And once it's gone from your yearly budget you have no room to cover the 'what ifs'. But you know that, but nothing beats a cheap shot....
80 hours! Christ, that's dreadful. That's nearly three weeks' work.
The Met, of course, used to be treated specially. Now the counties are the ones where cuts are lower. Just £4m for Sussex next year (that being the year when we were told there would be no cuts to the police - got to laugh at that) and that has been reduced from around £6m I believe. It's almost as if London doesn't vote tory.
The fear is that there will be another demand for mutual aid, such as the riots of a few years ago. What's going to happen then? Where are the police going to come from? There were complaints last time of too few officers. It was one of my fears that such a riot would take place just before the next elections and the tories lose dramatically. Now I'm hoping it does.
I've been retired for ten years+ and I've recently been asked how I would view retired officers being asked to return to work as specials. What a state to get the state into.
Boy, am I glad I'm out of it. It was bad enough coping with the cuts to budgets when we were, according to the government, getting so much more money.
If I could be bothered, I'd trawl back through SP&L to find the threads which were running a year or two back when the Home Sec was slashing Police budgets.
Lots of posters went down the line of 'quit the moaning, take your cuts like everyone else'. The resident BiBs stated that's all well and good, but it's only a matter of time before the public start to feel and see the impact of the cuts.
Well, that time has arrived.
Lots of posters went down the line of 'quit the moaning, take your cuts like everyone else'. The resident BiBs stated that's all well and good, but it's only a matter of time before the public start to feel and see the impact of the cuts.
Well, that time has arrived.
Derek Smith said:
davemac250 said:
As a more serious response and Derek may like to know this given his past in Control rooms.
The Met are redesigning their call response gradings. The force is unable to meet its charter times on Soonest/Standard response grade calls - those to be attended within an hour.
Control will now offer two response grades.
Immediate - those got to in under 15 minutes, and which is a generally met target with 90% attended within charter.
And everything else. No times. Just being abandoned.
Case Progression Units are being disbanded. Relief PC's will keep their own investigations.
CID remits being reduced at the same time, they will no longer investigate robberies, burglaries or fraud. These will fall to the uniform teams. The case loads on detectives are deemed too high. This means response officers will no longer drop off and go back on patrol, they will be tied up for hours. Only if the investigation is 'likely' to take over 80 hours will it be able to be handed over.
A re-think on the number of custody suites is due. With closures planned. Most Friday and Saturday evenings they are already full. That won't be an issue as there will be no officers outside the station in any case.
Case preparation staff have already gone. Officers now do all the paperwork, whereas for years there was back office staff doing that. It's been a big hit on officer time.
The volume of crimes is going up. The call numbers are increasing, steadily. Officer numbers and certainly officer experience is decreasing.
To the poster mentioning budgets - all stake holders hold back funds till the end of the budget year and then spend. It's use it or lose it. And once it's gone from your yearly budget you have no room to cover the 'what ifs'. But you know that, but nothing beats a cheap shot....
Scary. Officers being removed from paperwork was something that progressed throughout my career. I was in charge of a unit that did case prep. My staff, all but my deputy were civvies, were so much faster than I could have been and (irritatingly) made fewer mistakes. They were half the price of police officers. The skills the Job is losing.The Met are redesigning their call response gradings. The force is unable to meet its charter times on Soonest/Standard response grade calls - those to be attended within an hour.
Control will now offer two response grades.
Immediate - those got to in under 15 minutes, and which is a generally met target with 90% attended within charter.
And everything else. No times. Just being abandoned.
Case Progression Units are being disbanded. Relief PC's will keep their own investigations.
CID remits being reduced at the same time, they will no longer investigate robberies, burglaries or fraud. These will fall to the uniform teams. The case loads on detectives are deemed too high. This means response officers will no longer drop off and go back on patrol, they will be tied up for hours. Only if the investigation is 'likely' to take over 80 hours will it be able to be handed over.
A re-think on the number of custody suites is due. With closures planned. Most Friday and Saturday evenings they are already full. That won't be an issue as there will be no officers outside the station in any case.
Case preparation staff have already gone. Officers now do all the paperwork, whereas for years there was back office staff doing that. It's been a big hit on officer time.
The volume of crimes is going up. The call numbers are increasing, steadily. Officer numbers and certainly officer experience is decreasing.
To the poster mentioning budgets - all stake holders hold back funds till the end of the budget year and then spend. It's use it or lose it. And once it's gone from your yearly budget you have no room to cover the 'what ifs'. But you know that, but nothing beats a cheap shot....
80 hours! Christ, that's dreadful. That's nearly three weeks' work.
The Met, of course, used to be treated specially. Now the counties are the ones where cuts are lower. Just £4m for Sussex next year (that being the year when we were told there would be no cuts to the police - got to laugh at that) and that has been reduced from around £6m I believe. It's almost as if London doesn't vote tory.
The fear is that there will be another demand for mutual aid, such as the riots of a few years ago. What's going to happen then? Where are the police going to come from? There were complaints last time of too few officers. It was one of my fears that such a riot would take place just before the next elections and the tories lose dramatically. Now I'm hoping it does.
I've been retired for ten years+ and I've recently been asked how I would view retired officers being asked to return to work as specials. What a state to get the state into.
Boy, am I glad I'm out of it. It was bad enough coping with the cuts to budgets when we were, according to the government, getting so much more money.
The snt's are mostly made up of brand new officers some straight from street duties.
Now the detection rates have in some cases gone down to single figures which will probably be adjusted to make it look better.
REALIST123 said:
You imply a 2/3 reduction in numbers? Since when?
The truth is that there aren't that many less police officers than ten years ago, though the number increased up to around 2010 then declined.
2010 143000
2015 126000
About 12% from a peak figure, which should be manageable given technological improvements.
Hardly going into battle "only suddenly to find you have a third of the infantry you used to have".
Where I work, in the last six or seven years we have gone from three police stations putting out around a total of 36 response officers to one station which puts out around 12. It should be a minimum of 18 but that rarely happens. 10-12 is the norm.The truth is that there aren't that many less police officers than ten years ago, though the number increased up to around 2010 then declined.
2010 143000
2015 126000
About 12% from a peak figure, which should be manageable given technological improvements.
Hardly going into battle "only suddenly to find you have a third of the infantry you used to have".
Believe you me, it is not "manageable" on any scale and as another poster pointed out, we are also losing civilian staff at a rate of knots through redundancy, natural wastage and people going off to pastures new where they get a better deal.
So who does all the work left behind? Officers. The escalation in workload has been enormous and everything combined leaves the picture looking far worse than the raw numbers appear.
Jameson said:
So who does all the work left behind? Officers. The escalation in workload has been enormous and everything combined leaves the picture looking far worse than the raw numbers appear.
Don't forget the criticism from on high of response to domestic violence, child abuse etc which has meant that Safeguarding/DV units have been bolstered, to the detriment of response shifts (I.e those attending 999 calls.)Edited by RogueTrooper on Thursday 19th May 08:11
Because the police no longer want to be firearms officers, it looks increasingly likely that the Army may be used. Trust me, it's not just the police who face cuts, the Army is on its knees. With other services refusing to work, we have to fill the gaps. There is no choice in this either, and we don't even get overtime.
Oh well, orders is orders. Thousands are already on 6 hours NTM to help the police out.
Oh well, orders is orders. Thousands are already on 6 hours NTM to help the police out.
bmw535i said:
Not sure if anyone watches police interceptors, but there was an officer on the latest episode who was called by his mum to help her retrieve her car keys after locking them in her car. He was allowed to attend.
Perhaps some forces have different priorities, but this sort of thing just makes the police look like knobs. (IMO)
For those who didn't see it, the officer explained on camera that he'd asked his supervision for permission to attend. The control room was aware. The officer remained within his BCU and was available to be redeployed.Perhaps some forces have different priorities, but this sort of thing just makes the police look like knobs. (IMO)
I'm sure he wouldn't have been allowed to attend if it meant he was going to be late attending a firearms deployment in his ARV, or that he couldn't attend a RTC nearby.
Tonsko said:
JulianHJ said:
Numbers slashed, public outraged when incidents are not attended and crimes not investigated, home secretary on the offensive - oh look how bad the police are, perhaps we should get businesses in to sort it all out...
I wonder how many politicians have interests in the companies likely to bid for such opportunities.
Seems mysteriously similar to the current strategy to 'deal' with the NHS.I wonder how many politicians have interests in the companies likely to bid for such opportunities.
wiliferus said:
If I could be bothered, I'd trawl back through SP&L to find the threads which were running a year or two back when the Home Sec was slashing Police budgets.
Lots of posters went down the line of 'quit the moaning, take your cuts like everyone else'. The resident BiBs stated that's all well and good, but it's only a matter of time before the public start to feel and see the impact of the cuts.
Well, that time has arrived.
When the PH massive complains in the near future that the police were unable to cope with riots because there weren't enough of them I'd be grateful if you could do it then.Lots of posters went down the line of 'quit the moaning, take your cuts like everyone else'. The resident BiBs stated that's all well and good, but it's only a matter of time before the public start to feel and see the impact of the cuts.
Well, that time has arrived.
I have a belief that the problems of cutting county forces to danger levels were put to the government via the Home Sec but these were ignored. The pretense of the cause of the riots being the shooting of Duggan has been something of a smoke screen. The reason for the criminal damage and mass burglaries (not looting) was that there were too few officers there to stop them. That was before the massive cuts started. Next time it will be worse. The number of officers available on shift in some county forces of an evening is as low as when mutual aid was being provided for the London riots.
I'm told that tactics will change, but not because it will provide a better outcome but that the old ones are impossible to service.
It is not the officers at the front end that are a problem, it is those in charge from May down who let them down
A lot of policing is now driven by some form of popularity chart. Historic sex case, no issue chuck money at it. Madeline McCann yep plenty of cash, but officers on the beat no chance of the right funding.
I think there will be a lot of merging of service, already they are looking at Fire and ambulance service working closer, why not the police as well for things like call handling and back office functions?
Already one force is looking at doing away with many ranks, will that help?
All I know was the young officer who worked on my burglary case, did everything he could. He was let down by others including the CPS. He was worked of his feet and was in my home when he had finished work.
I wrote to the PCC and the CC to commend him and critique what as a rate payer I felt was wrong with the support of people like him.
Sometimes Police are too busy because there are just not enough. Seems a pattern not enough Police, not enough dr's
A lot of policing is now driven by some form of popularity chart. Historic sex case, no issue chuck money at it. Madeline McCann yep plenty of cash, but officers on the beat no chance of the right funding.
I think there will be a lot of merging of service, already they are looking at Fire and ambulance service working closer, why not the police as well for things like call handling and back office functions?
Already one force is looking at doing away with many ranks, will that help?
All I know was the young officer who worked on my burglary case, did everything he could. He was let down by others including the CPS. He was worked of his feet and was in my home when he had finished work.
I wrote to the PCC and the CC to commend him and critique what as a rate payer I felt was wrong with the support of people like him.
Sometimes Police are too busy because there are just not enough. Seems a pattern not enough Police, not enough dr's
bmw535i said:
Because the police no longer want to be firearms officers, it looks increasingly likely that the Army may be used. Trust me, it's not just the police who face cuts, the Army is on its knees. With other services refusing to work, we have to fill the gaps. There is no choice in this either, and we don't even get overtime.
Oh well, orders is orders. Thousands are already on 6 hours NTM to help the police out.
It's not that Police officers don't want to be AFOs, Christ historically they form an orderly queue to get an application form. It's that there's a deep distrust of the system in the event they have take a life. Increased scrutiny, criticism, and an inability of any management to support officers who have fired, means that there's less of a willingness to take in the role. Let's face it, no one wants to get locked up for doing their job. I'm not an AFO. Would I carry? In the current climate, not a chance. Oh well, orders is orders. Thousands are already on 6 hours NTM to help the police out.
So yet again, blame the establishment, not the Officers. If the support miraculously appears, there will be AFOs everywhere.
wiliferus said:
bmw535i said:
Because the police no longer want to be firearms officers, it looks increasingly likely that the Army may be used. Trust me, it's not just the police who face cuts, the Army is on its knees. With other services refusing to work, we have to fill the gaps. There is no choice in this either, and we don't even get overtime.
Oh well, orders is orders. Thousands are already on 6 hours NTM to help the police out.
It's not that Police officers don't want to be AFOs, Christ historically they form an orderly queue to get an application form. It's that there's a deep distrust of the system in the event they have take a life. Increased scrutiny, criticism, and an inability of any management to support officers who have fired, means that there's less of a willingness to take in the role. Let's face it, no one wants to get locked up for doing their job. I'm not an AFO. Would I carry? In the current climate, not a chance. Oh well, orders is orders. Thousands are already on 6 hours NTM to help the police out.
So yet again, blame the establishment, not the Officers. If the support miraculously appears, there will be AFOs everywhere.
I was an AFO. I've been asked every month for the last four months to return. Not a chance. Just the thought that the likes of Rovingtroll, Carniaman or David 'all Police are murderers' Ball could be on an inquest jury is enough, That's before the IPCC come in ham fished and arrest you for murder in order to placate a 'community' meeting.
Our whole admin unit has closed. All the typing, case file prep, summons preparation, postal enquirers and more that was done by civilians, now has to be done by Officers. Cuts have consequences. We were accused of crying wolf. We weren't.
Our whole admin unit has closed. All the typing, case file prep, summons preparation, postal enquirers and more that was done by civilians, now has to be done by Officers. Cuts have consequences. We were accused of crying wolf. We weren't.
wiliferus said:
It's not that Police officers don't want to be AFOs, Christ historically they form an orderly queue to get an application form. It's that there's a deep distrust of the system in the event they have take a life. Increased scrutiny, criticism, and an inability of any management to support officers who have fired, means that there's less of a willingness to take in the role. Let's face it, no one wants to get locked up for doing their job. I'm not an AFO. Would I carry? In the current climate, not a chance.
So yet again, blame the establishment, not the Officers. If the support miraculously appears, there will be AFOs everywhere.
Your choice not to do it, so I'll blame you. Soldiers will end up forced to do it and it will go horribly wrong.So yet again, blame the establishment, not the Officers. If the support miraculously appears, there will be AFOs everywhere.
There are soldiers who end up in court or prison for firearms incidents, the rest of us don't suddenly refuse to soldier because of that. That would be cowardice.
bmw535i said:
Your choice not to do it, so I'll blame you. Soldiers will end up forced to do it and it will go horribly wrong.
There are soldiers who end up in court or prison for firearms incidents, the rest of us don't suddenly refuse to soldier because of that. That would be cowardice.
You seem to have a real difficulty separating war and domestic situations. Many Officers on this site and others who I work with have years in the Forces. Non have the bitter attitude you seem to demonstrate. The only time you'll see military on the streets is if there is a major terrorist attack. It will be the unarmed Officers who will be first at the scene of such an attack. UNARMED. Your suggestion of 'cowardice' is pathetic. There are soldiers who end up in court or prison for firearms incidents, the rest of us don't suddenly refuse to soldier because of that. That would be cowardice.
Elroy Blue said:
You seem to have a real difficulty separating war and domestic situations. Many Officers on this site and others who I work with have years in the Forces. Non have the bitter attitude you seem to demonstrate. The only time you'll see military on the streets is if there is a major terrorist attack. It will be the unarmed Officers who will be first at the scene of such an attack. UNARMED. Your suggestion of 'cowardice' is pathetic.
If you weren't being so defensive you'd be able to understand my posts better. It was also not me who began to compare police cuts with soldiering.It is a fact that a soldier would be disciplined for refusing to bear arms - as a coward. I'm not sure why that is pathetic.
I'm certainly not bitter, I just think the police are utterly useless. That's my impression - it may well be the fault of others that the police haven't served me when I needed them.
I have been the victim of domestic violence - the police refused to believe it until I was attacked with a knife. They took over an hour to arrive on that occasion despite me being injured. The police now claim to take domestic violence seriously - I very much doubt it.
I have never had a positive experience of the police. It's unfortunate, but true. I'm sure there are good officers out there who are diligent and willing to go the extra mile, I just haven't met any.
OP - you need a reality check.
There are about 120,000 police officers in England and Wales.
About 30,000 of those are in the Met.
That leaves 90,000 for the rest of the country.
Divide that number by 4 (for 4 shifts) = 22,500.
Now deduct from that number officers who are not deployable; bosses/ office dwellers/ abstractions for training courses/ sick/ on leave/ whatever ....
Let's be (very) optimistic here and say 25% of that 22,500 are not "deployable"
That leaves about 17,000 cops to police all of England and Wales - cities like Manchester, Cardiff, Birmingham, Nottingham, Bristol, Leeds, Liverpool, Newcastle, Sheffield, etc. etc and everything in between ....
Now imagine those 17,000 cops together in a football stadium - they wouldn't even fill half of the average premier league ground ... now think about those cities and everything in between again.
Get it ?
There are about 120,000 police officers in England and Wales.
About 30,000 of those are in the Met.
That leaves 90,000 for the rest of the country.
Divide that number by 4 (for 4 shifts) = 22,500.
Now deduct from that number officers who are not deployable; bosses/ office dwellers/ abstractions for training courses/ sick/ on leave/ whatever ....
Let's be (very) optimistic here and say 25% of that 22,500 are not "deployable"
That leaves about 17,000 cops to police all of England and Wales - cities like Manchester, Cardiff, Birmingham, Nottingham, Bristol, Leeds, Liverpool, Newcastle, Sheffield, etc. etc and everything in between ....
Now imagine those 17,000 cops together in a football stadium - they wouldn't even fill half of the average premier league ground ... now think about those cities and everything in between again.
Get it ?
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