30mph on M4 death
Discussion
I see at least a couple of slow moving cranes a week in lane one on the motorway, some escorted but most are not. With reasonable observation, theyre usually visible a good way off, so its possible to get into another lane well ahead of reaching them - its those that dont bother to look that get stuck behind the crane or start jockying for another lane from behind the crane that often cause the problems.
I see very little misuse of amber lights on the motorway so generally any seen will be a genuine hazard
I see very little misuse of amber lights on the motorway so generally any seen will be a genuine hazard
TooMany2cvs said:
The Surveyor said:
As far as I'm aware there is no law dictating a minimum speed on the motorways, but there are plenty requiring care and attention.
But legislation DOES restrict "certain slow moving vehicles". I CBA to wade through the actual legislation to find out what exactly, but AIUI it's anything not capable of 30mph/50kph. And mobile cranes are deliberately designed to be able to exceed that speed, so are legal.For those who are suggesting that it's a hazard to be met with a slow moving vehicle if the HGV in front of you suddenly swings out to overtake, well here's a suggestion. Stop tailgating, pull back a little and look a little further ahead than the bumper sticker of the wagon in front of you.
I think you are exceeding the argument. Also ignoring the fact that there has been a very sad fatality here - although we are not actually sure why the driver failed to spot the slow moving lit up vehicle. But he did. So it seems pragmatic to analyse what to me is slow moving hazard which increases risk factors and as a bonus maybe address the inconvenience to motorway speeds capable users? This is pretty easy to do. Maybe a guideline that their insurers would also approve of to avoid travel at peak times? Or maybe one to only permit travel at peak times in congested areas where general speeds are slower? Or one to permit travel between dawn and dusk where lights are more visible and traffic density lower? Or do nothing of course and accept the added risk.
I genuinely don't think the issue is the relative speed here though. Whether this was a well-lit slow moving crane, a HATO tending to a breakdown, road workers putting out cones, or just a simple queue of traffic, there is just the same potential for a non-attentive driver to cause a collision.
There will always be the potential for a hazard to be present on the motorway at anytime of the day or night. Putting restrictions will just be an added inconvenience and cost for those who have to deliver these cranes without any measureable improvement in safety IMHO.
There will always be the potential for a hazard to be present on the motorway at anytime of the day or night. Putting restrictions will just be an added inconvenience and cost for those who have to deliver these cranes without any measureable improvement in safety IMHO.
I wasn't there.
But it's POSSIBLE that the lorry had another lorry in front of it, obscuring the view.
That lorry COULD have moved right quickly, leaving the lorry in behind - with the crane in front of it, on very short notice.
I had this happen to me a few times (once on a bicycle, guy swerves right, tree stump, thump)...
But it's POSSIBLE that the lorry had another lorry in front of it, obscuring the view.
That lorry COULD have moved right quickly, leaving the lorry in behind - with the crane in front of it, on very short notice.
I had this happen to me a few times (once on a bicycle, guy swerves right, tree stump, thump)...
there were also other unfortunate factors that lead to the death. The crane veered up an embankment and rolled. How well secured is the driver in a crane cab? A normal seatbelt would not be that effective in a roll of a vehicle with a high centre of gravity. Perhaps road design and vehicle design need to be thought about as well. In another location the crane might have been collected by the barriers with no harm done at all.
It's possible that road design compounded the issue.....
I use that stretch a fair bit and at J32 the M4 opens up from 2 lanes to 3 with two lanes merging from the slip road... Unfortunately you get the existing westbound traffic staying in lanes 2 & 3 with the two slip lanes of traffic trying to fight their way across to lane three.
The distance between the two junctions is a little over 2 miles and a lot of it is up hill, at rush hour you will struggle to do 60mph...
However where the accident happened is about a mile from J33 which has (IMHO) been badly redesigned, the exit slip road is very narrow, single lane and short when leaving the main motorway, traffic in lane 1 is often travelling at less than 30mph (often stationary) due to it being a 40mph at the roundabout end of the slip road.
Speculatively it's possible that the tanker driver wasn't aware of the issues leading up to J33 and mis-judged the closing speed between him and the traffic in front, especially if partially blinded by brake lights of vehicles wanting to leave the motorway.
Traffic is also, often, very tightly bunched westbound, as a result of the uphill incline and the exit for J33, making it difficult at times to manoeuvre across the lanes.
A sad incident for the families involved.
I use that stretch a fair bit and at J32 the M4 opens up from 2 lanes to 3 with two lanes merging from the slip road... Unfortunately you get the existing westbound traffic staying in lanes 2 & 3 with the two slip lanes of traffic trying to fight their way across to lane three.
The distance between the two junctions is a little over 2 miles and a lot of it is up hill, at rush hour you will struggle to do 60mph...
However where the accident happened is about a mile from J33 which has (IMHO) been badly redesigned, the exit slip road is very narrow, single lane and short when leaving the main motorway, traffic in lane 1 is often travelling at less than 30mph (often stationary) due to it being a 40mph at the roundabout end of the slip road.
Speculatively it's possible that the tanker driver wasn't aware of the issues leading up to J33 and mis-judged the closing speed between him and the traffic in front, especially if partially blinded by brake lights of vehicles wanting to leave the motorway.
Traffic is also, often, very tightly bunched westbound, as a result of the uphill incline and the exit for J33, making it difficult at times to manoeuvre across the lanes.
A sad incident for the families involved.
qska said:
I wasn't there.
But it's POSSIBLE that the lorry had another lorry in front of it, obscuring the view.
That lorry COULD have moved right quickly, leaving the lorry in behind - with the crane in front of it, on very short notice.
I had this happen to me a few times (once on a bicycle, guy swerves right, tree stump, thump)...
The lorry driver didn't mention any such mitigating circumstances according to the report I read (apart from his sneeze)...But it's POSSIBLE that the lorry had another lorry in front of it, obscuring the view.
That lorry COULD have moved right quickly, leaving the lorry in behind - with the crane in front of it, on very short notice.
I had this happen to me a few times (once on a bicycle, guy swerves right, tree stump, thump)...
qska said:
I wasn't there.
But it's POSSIBLE that the lorry had another lorry in front of it, obscuring the view.
That lorry COULD have moved right quickly, leaving the lorry in behind - with the crane in front of it, on very short notice.
Let's put "very short notice" into perspective, shall we?But it's POSSIBLE that the lorry had another lorry in front of it, obscuring the view.
That lorry COULD have moved right quickly, leaving the lorry in behind - with the crane in front of it, on very short notice.
An articulated wagon is 16.5m long. Let's say he had a whole extra truck space between him and the wagon in front, and there was a similar gap between that wagon and the crane.
That's 3 x 16.5m - 48.5m.
26mph closing speed is 42.4kph, or 42,400 metres per hour. So that's just under 12 metres per second. Which means that three articulated wagons-length of gap would take over four seconds to close after that truck in front had got out of the way.
And that, of course, ignores how the hell the HGV in front - also doing 56mph - managed to swerve out round a mobile crane doing 30mph within 16.5m...
TooMany2cvs said:
Let's put "very short notice" into perspective, shall we?
You've got it the wrong way round. If the lorry driver is driving so he can stop in the distance he can see to be clear, then having another truck in front gives him an additional safety margin when it moves to lane 2 and the mobile crane comes into view.From the picture in the article it appears the crash happened in the dark.
There is not mentioned in the article of any mitigation/defence apart from the sneeze.
I recall that there was a study/article about how flashing lights may affect some people by drawing them into the lights a bit light a moth.
Not saying this occurred here but got me thinking and wondered if others have experienced anything similar to me.
I know a long time ago, about midnight, very dark night, seeing in the distance police blue strobe type lights on a motorway. I found was that I was very disorientated inso much that I was a lot closer to the flashing blue lights then I had initially thought, I had misjudged the distance, and also that I could not see that lanes 1 and 2 were closed as the flashing lights were so disorientating. I had slowed down but was shocked at how much the lights had affected me. Not had it since but equally this was on a very dark night with no other traffic around.
There is not mentioned in the article of any mitigation/defence apart from the sneeze.
I recall that there was a study/article about how flashing lights may affect some people by drawing them into the lights a bit light a moth.
Not saying this occurred here but got me thinking and wondered if others have experienced anything similar to me.
I know a long time ago, about midnight, very dark night, seeing in the distance police blue strobe type lights on a motorway. I found was that I was very disorientated inso much that I was a lot closer to the flashing blue lights then I had initially thought, I had misjudged the distance, and also that I could not see that lanes 1 and 2 were closed as the flashing lights were so disorientating. I had slowed down but was shocked at how much the lights had affected me. Not had it since but equally this was on a very dark night with no other traffic around.
Edited by superlightr on Thursday 26th May 17:08
Had a chat with a mobile crane driver a couple of weeks ago. Asked him why they were so slow.
His answer was two-fold:
"Even the small ones weigh over 20 tonnes, bigger ones 40-60 tonnes. Their prime role is being a crane, so they aren't given a particularly big driving engine."
"As they don't go very fast, they are only equipped with drum brakes. Not ideal for stopping from speed in a hurry"
His answer was two-fold:
"Even the small ones weigh over 20 tonnes, bigger ones 40-60 tonnes. Their prime role is being a crane, so they aren't given a particularly big driving engine."
"As they don't go very fast, they are only equipped with drum brakes. Not ideal for stopping from speed in a hurry"
People look but they don't see, people can't read the road, a truck is catching another truck up , he might change lanes , he has foreign numberplates so I'll sit here in the blind spot until I get spun up the motorway .
On the M65 about 10 years ago a girl was in front of me going up a steep hill at 70 in a new beetle , up ahead was an artic, slow moving, smoke coming out of both stacks indicating it was at full power.
I pulled into the middle lane a long way before I got to it because I could see it was barely moving , she carried on behind it, I flashed my lights and backed off
She got to within metres of the back of it then realised it was doing about 10mph, she swerved that hard she finished up on the gravel near the central reservation
Looked but didn't see, luckily it was mid morning and the road was empty, if it'd been a couple of hours earlier it'd have been skittles
On the M65 about 10 years ago a girl was in front of me going up a steep hill at 70 in a new beetle , up ahead was an artic, slow moving, smoke coming out of both stacks indicating it was at full power.
I pulled into the middle lane a long way before I got to it because I could see it was barely moving , she carried on behind it, I flashed my lights and backed off
She got to within metres of the back of it then realised it was doing about 10mph, she swerved that hard she finished up on the gravel near the central reservation
Looked but didn't see, luckily it was mid morning and the road was empty, if it'd been a couple of hours earlier it'd have been skittles
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