Slight legal headache. (Failure to notify police of details)
Discussion
I'll try and keep this short. I'm aware that for a complete answer I'll need to speak to a solicitor at some point however I'd appreciate some more information/advice for now.
I got a call from my mother last week saying I had an important looking letter at home and asked if she should open it. The letter turned out to be a court summons type thing.
One times speeding (35 in a 30)
One times failure to notify police.
The speeding ticket was from last November.
Queue a slight panic.
I'm in the Army, and in the last 9 months have moved accommodation (base) 5 times, as I went through various phases of training. To that end, I've kept my insurance updated, but my postal address has remained at home. Otherwise I'd never receive mail due to the frequency of my moving.
At no point have I received a letter saying I've been speeding. There's a chance it arrived at home and got lost with all the spam waiting for me, but I'm pretty diligent about going through my mail so I suspect there's a chance it never arrived in the first place.
So I managed to find some internet and put in a non guilty plea for the second charge and wrote a few paragraphs to explain my personal situation. I included the fact it would pretty much end my career as an officer if I have any sort of serious conviction against me and as such I would never knowingly do anything unlawful. (I'm not going to lose my job over this matter in particular, but the point being it's in my interests to keep my nose clean)
My questions to those of you with the experience:
What usually happens in this sort of case?
Will personal circumstances factor in at all?
Am I right in thinking that the maximum punishment is 9 penalty points altogether? (not including fines)
Any advice regarding lawyers and who to speak to would be good too. As far as I'm aware the Army legal service wont want to know about this sort of matter.
Edited slightly for clarity.
I got a call from my mother last week saying I had an important looking letter at home and asked if she should open it. The letter turned out to be a court summons type thing.
One times speeding (35 in a 30)
One times failure to notify police.
The speeding ticket was from last November.
Queue a slight panic.
I'm in the Army, and in the last 9 months have moved accommodation (base) 5 times, as I went through various phases of training. To that end, I've kept my insurance updated, but my postal address has remained at home. Otherwise I'd never receive mail due to the frequency of my moving.
At no point have I received a letter saying I've been speeding. There's a chance it arrived at home and got lost with all the spam waiting for me, but I'm pretty diligent about going through my mail so I suspect there's a chance it never arrived in the first place.
So I managed to find some internet and put in a non guilty plea for the second charge and wrote a few paragraphs to explain my personal situation. I included the fact it would pretty much end my career as an officer if I have any sort of serious conviction against me and as such I would never knowingly do anything unlawful. (I'm not going to lose my job over this matter in particular, but the point being it's in my interests to keep my nose clean)
My questions to those of you with the experience:
What usually happens in this sort of case?
Will personal circumstances factor in at all?
Am I right in thinking that the maximum punishment is 9 penalty points altogether? (not including fines)
Any advice regarding lawyers and who to speak to would be good too. As far as I'm aware the Army legal service wont want to know about this sort of matter.
Edited slightly for clarity.
Edited by matthias73 on Tuesday 24th May 01:43
Summons has been issued by the police because you were caught by a camera and failed to identify the driver under the terms of the initial letter then?
The reason I asked my initial question was; I work for a Local Authority. Due to spending cuts we no longer send mail with the royal mail. It goes out via a cheaper contractor and based on the number of people who ring me up saying they've not received such and such, it would seem that a greater number of letters have been going missing since the switch.
Not saying the Contractor is to blame, it could be as a result of internal job cuts.
And TBH, I'm not sure who sends the ticket from the safety partnership - It may be the LA, it may be the Police. And it may be that the Police have outsourced their post to someone else too...
The reason I asked my initial question was; I work for a Local Authority. Due to spending cuts we no longer send mail with the royal mail. It goes out via a cheaper contractor and based on the number of people who ring me up saying they've not received such and such, it would seem that a greater number of letters have been going missing since the switch.
Not saying the Contractor is to blame, it could be as a result of internal job cuts.
And TBH, I'm not sure who sends the ticket from the safety partnership - It may be the LA, it may be the Police. And it may be that the Police have outsourced their post to someone else too...
Zombie said:
Summons has been issued by the police because you were caught by a camera and failed to identify the driver under the terms of the initial letter then?
The reason I asked my initial question was; I work for a Local Authority. Due to spending cuts we no longer send mail with the royal mail. It goes out via a cheaper contractor and based on the number of people who ring me up saying they've not received such and such, it would seem that a greater number of letters have been going missing since the switch.
Not saying the Contractor is to blame, it could be as a result of internal job cuts.
And TBH, I'm not sure who sends the ticket from the safety partnership - It may be the LA, it may be the Police. And it may be that the Police have outsourced their post to someone else too...
God almighty, what next??!!The reason I asked my initial question was; I work for a Local Authority. Due to spending cuts we no longer send mail with the royal mail. It goes out via a cheaper contractor and based on the number of people who ring me up saying they've not received such and such, it would seem that a greater number of letters have been going missing since the switch.
Not saying the Contractor is to blame, it could be as a result of internal job cuts.
And TBH, I'm not sure who sends the ticket from the safety partnership - It may be the LA, it may be the Police. And it may be that the Police have outsourced their post to someone else too...
How the hell can anyone imply that this system bears any resemblance whatever to a system of justice when we serve NIPs in this manner. Utterly bloody scandalous considering the implications.
J
Zombie said:
Summons has been issued by the police because you were caught by a camera and failed to identify the driver under the terms of the initial letter then?
The reason I asked my initial question was; I work for a Local Authority. Due to spending cuts we no longer send mail with the royal mail. It goes out via a cheaper contractor and based on the number of people who ring me up saying they've not received such and such, it would seem that a greater number of letters have been going missing since the switch.
Not saying the Contractor is to blame, it could be as a result of internal job cuts.
And TBH, I'm not sure who sends the ticket from the safety partnership - It may be the LA, it may be the Police. And it may be that the Police have outsourced their post to someone else too...
Thank you for that. I'd have assumed that recorded delivery would have to have been used to prove a letter found itself to my address. Surely the police can't prosecute based on their word that they sent a letter.The reason I asked my initial question was; I work for a Local Authority. Due to spending cuts we no longer send mail with the royal mail. It goes out via a cheaper contractor and based on the number of people who ring me up saying they've not received such and such, it would seem that a greater number of letters have been going missing since the switch.
Not saying the Contractor is to blame, it could be as a result of internal job cuts.
And TBH, I'm not sure who sends the ticket from the safety partnership - It may be the LA, it may be the Police. And it may be that the Police have outsourced their post to someone else too...
Why they didn't just get my contact details through my insurance company is beyond me. It would have taken 3 minutes.
matthias73 said:
Thank you for that. I'd have assumed that recorded delivery would have to have been used to prove a letter found itself to my address. Surely the police can't prosecute based on their word that they sent a letter.
Why they didn't just get my contact details through my insurance company is beyond me. It would have taken 3 minutes.
Interpretation Act 1978 S7 ... read it, then MTFU and stop wriggling Why they didn't just get my contact details through my insurance company is beyond me. It would have taken 3 minutes.
Data protection act as well
mph1977 said:
matthias73 said:
Thank you for that. I'd have assumed that recorded delivery would have to have been used to prove a letter found itself to my address. Surely the police can't prosecute based on their word that they sent a letter.
Why they didn't just get my contact details through my insurance company is beyond me. It would have taken 3 minutes.
Interpretation Act 1978 S7 ... read it, then MTFU and stop wriggling Why they didn't just get my contact details through my insurance company is beyond me. It would have taken 3 minutes.
Data protection act as well
jith said:
God almighty, what next??!!
How the hell can anyone imply that this system bears any resemblance whatever to a system of justice when we serve NIPs in this manner. Utterly bloody scandalous considering the implications.
J
PH - pinch of salt? - Several pished assumptions may have been made on my part. It's been a while since I had an NIP but if I recall correctly it was sent out in the normal mail.How the hell can anyone imply that this system bears any resemblance whatever to a system of justice when we serve NIPs in this manner. Utterly bloody scandalous considering the implications.
J
If anyone's that interested / bothered you could probably find out through an FOI enquiry.
Zombie said:
Summons has been issued by the police because you were caught by a camera and failed to identify the driver under the terms of the initial letter then?
The reason I asked my initial question was; I work for a Local Authority. Due to spending cuts we no longer send mail with the royal mail. It goes out via a cheaper contractor and based on the number of people who ring me up saying they've not received such and such, it would seem that a greater number of letters have been going missing since the switch.
Not saying the Contractor is to blame, it could be as a result of internal job cuts.
And TBH, I'm not sure who sends the ticket from the safety partnership - It may be the LA, it may be the Police. And it may be that the Police have outsourced their post to someone else too...
Even if it is outsourced, ordinary mail will still be shoved through your letterbox by your RM postie. See Downstream Access.The reason I asked my initial question was; I work for a Local Authority. Due to spending cuts we no longer send mail with the royal mail. It goes out via a cheaper contractor and based on the number of people who ring me up saying they've not received such and such, it would seem that a greater number of letters have been going missing since the switch.
Not saying the Contractor is to blame, it could be as a result of internal job cuts.
And TBH, I'm not sure who sends the ticket from the safety partnership - It may be the LA, it may be the Police. And it may be that the Police have outsourced their post to someone else too...
matthias73 said:
I'd much rather not have a black mark against my integrity on my record which is what a guilty sentence would equate to.
I'm a brand new lieutenant, so I won't be asking the CO to represent me anytime soon.
I won't amount to a lack of integrity. Keep the Adj updated, be completely honest and don't worry about this affecting your career. If you serve for any time, you're going to see people do much much worse and still promote.I'm a brand new lieutenant, so I won't be asking the CO to represent me anytime soon.
I would definitely as the OC to attend court with you.
BlueHave said:
Reply with
Dear Chief Constable
"Sorry, in the Army, you know training and/or fighting for my country"
Spot on, 'cause that excuses you from all offences.Dear Chief Constable
"Sorry, in the Army, you know training and/or fighting for my country"
OP, they only have to show that they posted it, not that you received it for you to be guilty of non-diclosure.
Edited by berlintaxi on Tuesday 24th May 07:02
Firstly IANAL and I suggest you speak to a proper solicitor, preferably one that specialises in motoring matters.
Possible in your circumstances you may be able to use one of the statutory defences to S172:
"S.172, sub-section 7.b, states that you shall not be convicted of failure to provide driver information if you can show that it was not ‘reasonably practicable’ to supply the information within the 28 days allowed.
This section goes on to state that if you provide the information outside of the 28 days, you will still have a defence if you can show that you gave that information ‘as soon as reasonably practicable thereafter’.
We tend to advance this defence on behalf of clients who say that they did not receive the request for driver information in the first place and therefore could not respond, or in cases where the delay in sending out a request has been so long that our clients can no longer remember who the driver was at the time of the alleged offence."
http://www.pattersonlaw.co.uk/motoring-offences/s-...
As you are moving around a lot I would suggest the use of your home address as your permanent address is not unreasonable.
Good luck with this and also with your career.
Possible in your circumstances you may be able to use one of the statutory defences to S172:
"S.172, sub-section 7.b, states that you shall not be convicted of failure to provide driver information if you can show that it was not ‘reasonably practicable’ to supply the information within the 28 days allowed.
This section goes on to state that if you provide the information outside of the 28 days, you will still have a defence if you can show that you gave that information ‘as soon as reasonably practicable thereafter’.
We tend to advance this defence on behalf of clients who say that they did not receive the request for driver information in the first place and therefore could not respond, or in cases where the delay in sending out a request has been so long that our clients can no longer remember who the driver was at the time of the alleged offence."
http://www.pattersonlaw.co.uk/motoring-offences/s-...
As you are moving around a lot I would suggest the use of your home address as your permanent address is not unreasonable.
Good luck with this and also with your career.
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