Slight legal headache. (Failure to notify police of details)
Discussion
It's happened to me.
There was an accident I was not involved in. The party at fault's number plate was mistaken for mine. A 'D' being mistaken for an 'O'. The first I knew of it was a court summons for leaving the scene of an accident and failure to notify.
I hadn't received the first letter sent to me from the police.
I instructed a lawyer to act on my behalf and she told the police what had happened and that I was not involved in any way in the accident in question.
Not interested in the slightest! It was only when my lawyer gave them signed statements to prove I was working about 150 miles away at the time of the accident and the car at fault was pointed out to them as being a black Peugeot 308 and while mine was a white Mercedes C63 AMG that they relented on the leaving the scene charge, but even that simple little thing, to check make and model of my car, took months. How hard can it be for goodness sake?
I was still being prosecuted for failure to notify. How can I tell them who was driving the Peugeot 308 at the time of the accident when it isn't my car and I wasn't involved in the accident in the first place!
I hadn't received the first letter from the police because I live in a Victorian town house with its original front door and period tiny letter box. Whoever delivers my mail tends to band it all together with a rubber band and leave it on the door step. I've had credit/debit cards and amazon deliveries go missing due to this, despite a laminated note by the door mat saying not to leave anything on the step because it's in full view of the road.
I pleaded not guilty on the paperwork of the summons, and requested a personal hearing that my lawyer and I would attend. We were waiting to for a date to do so, when was I convicted in my absence! They had not informed me or my lawyer that the hearing was even taking place! I was given 6 points and £935 fine (including a bloody victim surcharge!) without even being able to present my case! Isn't justice wonderful!
Of course I appealed. But to even get an appeal hearing and the case reopened, necessitated a court appearance and was time consuming despite proof of them them not informing us the original hearing was taking place, as they were obviously duty bound to do.
Eventually we got it reopened and had the court hearing at the county court in Walthamstow where I was eventually cleared of any wrongdoing after a great deal of stress, huge expense, huge loss of time and loss of goodwill with people I do business with because I'm self employed.
I had the points deleted, was refunded my fine and some costs (only the ones I could prove) but nowhere near what I lost in reality. I'm still out of pocket by thousands of pounds by having to turn down jobs because of this.
So because someone somewhere has poor handwriting and can't differentiate between a 'D' and an 'O', because the poice are too ignorant to do a simple vehicle check, and because my postman is too lazy to put letters through my door, I went through hell. I already had 6 points on licence at the time (its clean now thank goodness), so would've lost it, and with it my business in all likelihood. That's what was at stake!
The whole thing was a farce. A little bit of common sense and diligence could've avoided this. As it was it took 3 court hearings and cost the tax payer a fortune because they fought it all way and lost!
As has been said already, police letters like this should require a signature upon delivery. It's not a game when the repercussions are such as they are.
The lead magistrate reprimanded the police lawyer for even bringing the matter before the three of them. My lawyer also said to me afterwards that the police/police lawyers tend to be very pig headed in these situations and fight it to the death despite little chance of success and its us who foot the bill. It's a regular occurrence. ABC's was their office nickname for them. Arrogant beaurocratic cocks...
This, and another matter I won't go into here, has seriously affected my view of the police, I'm sorry to say.
So, OP you have my sympathies. I don't want it worry you unduly but what might seem a simple thing to deal with and correct to you or I, may involve a lot of time, money and stress, if my experience is anything to go by.
If you want any advice, feel free to ask. Glad to help.
There was an accident I was not involved in. The party at fault's number plate was mistaken for mine. A 'D' being mistaken for an 'O'. The first I knew of it was a court summons for leaving the scene of an accident and failure to notify.
I hadn't received the first letter sent to me from the police.
I instructed a lawyer to act on my behalf and she told the police what had happened and that I was not involved in any way in the accident in question.
Not interested in the slightest! It was only when my lawyer gave them signed statements to prove I was working about 150 miles away at the time of the accident and the car at fault was pointed out to them as being a black Peugeot 308 and while mine was a white Mercedes C63 AMG that they relented on the leaving the scene charge, but even that simple little thing, to check make and model of my car, took months. How hard can it be for goodness sake?
I was still being prosecuted for failure to notify. How can I tell them who was driving the Peugeot 308 at the time of the accident when it isn't my car and I wasn't involved in the accident in the first place!
I hadn't received the first letter from the police because I live in a Victorian town house with its original front door and period tiny letter box. Whoever delivers my mail tends to band it all together with a rubber band and leave it on the door step. I've had credit/debit cards and amazon deliveries go missing due to this, despite a laminated note by the door mat saying not to leave anything on the step because it's in full view of the road.
I pleaded not guilty on the paperwork of the summons, and requested a personal hearing that my lawyer and I would attend. We were waiting to for a date to do so, when was I convicted in my absence! They had not informed me or my lawyer that the hearing was even taking place! I was given 6 points and £935 fine (including a bloody victim surcharge!) without even being able to present my case! Isn't justice wonderful!
Of course I appealed. But to even get an appeal hearing and the case reopened, necessitated a court appearance and was time consuming despite proof of them them not informing us the original hearing was taking place, as they were obviously duty bound to do.
Eventually we got it reopened and had the court hearing at the county court in Walthamstow where I was eventually cleared of any wrongdoing after a great deal of stress, huge expense, huge loss of time and loss of goodwill with people I do business with because I'm self employed.
I had the points deleted, was refunded my fine and some costs (only the ones I could prove) but nowhere near what I lost in reality. I'm still out of pocket by thousands of pounds by having to turn down jobs because of this.
So because someone somewhere has poor handwriting and can't differentiate between a 'D' and an 'O', because the poice are too ignorant to do a simple vehicle check, and because my postman is too lazy to put letters through my door, I went through hell. I already had 6 points on licence at the time (its clean now thank goodness), so would've lost it, and with it my business in all likelihood. That's what was at stake!
The whole thing was a farce. A little bit of common sense and diligence could've avoided this. As it was it took 3 court hearings and cost the tax payer a fortune because they fought it all way and lost!
As has been said already, police letters like this should require a signature upon delivery. It's not a game when the repercussions are such as they are.
The lead magistrate reprimanded the police lawyer for even bringing the matter before the three of them. My lawyer also said to me afterwards that the police/police lawyers tend to be very pig headed in these situations and fight it to the death despite little chance of success and its us who foot the bill. It's a regular occurrence. ABC's was their office nickname for them. Arrogant beaurocratic cocks...
This, and another matter I won't go into here, has seriously affected my view of the police, I'm sorry to say.
So, OP you have my sympathies. I don't want it worry you unduly but what might seem a simple thing to deal with and correct to you or I, may involve a lot of time, money and stress, if my experience is anything to go by.
If you want any advice, feel free to ask. Glad to help.
You should deal with this by post.
- Plead guilty to speeding.
- Plead not guilty to failing to nominate.
In the mitigating circumstances section, outline your situation - or write a separate cover letter. Suggest that 3 points and a £100 fine is appropriate; see Magistrates Court Sentencing Guidelines, page 189, part 3.
In the unlikely event that your case is adjourned then get professional help.
Alternatively, if you want to avoid a conviction for both offences then get professional help.
matthias73 said:
I'll try and keep this short. I'm aware that for a complete answer I'll need to speak to a solicitor at some point however I'd appreciate some more information/advice for now.
I got a call from my mother last week saying I had an important looking letter at home and asked if she should open it. The letter turned out to be a court summons type thing.
One times speeding (35 in a 30)
One times failure to notify police.
The speeding ticket was from last November.
Queue a slight panic.
I'm in the Army, and in the last 9 months have moved accommodation (base) 5 times, as I went through various phases of training. To that end, I've kept my insurance updated, but my postal address has remained at home. Otherwise I'd never receive mail due to the frequency of my moving.
At no point have I received a letter saying I've been speeding. There's a chance it arrived at home and got lost with all the spam waiting for me, but I'm pretty diligent about going through my mail so I suspect there's a chance it never arrived in the first place.
So I managed to find some internet and put in a non guilty plea for the second charge and wrote a few paragraphs to explain my personal situation. I included the fact it would pretty much end my career as an officer if I have any sort of serious conviction against me and as such I would never knowingly do anything unlawful. (I'm not going to lose my job over this matter in particular, but the point being it's in my interests to keep my nose clean)
My questions to those of you with the experience:
What usually happens in this sort of case?
Will personal circumstances factor in at all?
Am I right in thinking that the maximum punishment is 9 penalty points altogether? (not including fines)
Any advice regarding lawyers and who to speak to would be good too. As far as I'm aware the Army legal service wont want to know about this sort of matter.
Edited slightly for clarity.
You appear to be guilty of both charges.I got a call from my mother last week saying I had an important looking letter at home and asked if she should open it. The letter turned out to be a court summons type thing.
One times speeding (35 in a 30)
One times failure to notify police.
The speeding ticket was from last November.
Queue a slight panic.
I'm in the Army, and in the last 9 months have moved accommodation (base) 5 times, as I went through various phases of training. To that end, I've kept my insurance updated, but my postal address has remained at home. Otherwise I'd never receive mail due to the frequency of my moving.
At no point have I received a letter saying I've been speeding. There's a chance it arrived at home and got lost with all the spam waiting for me, but I'm pretty diligent about going through my mail so I suspect there's a chance it never arrived in the first place.
So I managed to find some internet and put in a non guilty plea for the second charge and wrote a few paragraphs to explain my personal situation. I included the fact it would pretty much end my career as an officer if I have any sort of serious conviction against me and as such I would never knowingly do anything unlawful. (I'm not going to lose my job over this matter in particular, but the point being it's in my interests to keep my nose clean)
My questions to those of you with the experience:
What usually happens in this sort of case?
Will personal circumstances factor in at all?
Am I right in thinking that the maximum punishment is 9 penalty points altogether? (not including fines)
Any advice regarding lawyers and who to speak to would be good too. As far as I'm aware the Army legal service wont want to know about this sort of matter.
Edited slightly for clarity.
Edited by matthias73 on Tuesday 24th May 01:43
You have not replied to the request to name the driver because you have failed to deal properly with your mail. Using the service as an excuse is unlikely to wash with the magistrates although some are very benevolent. The police serve it and it's considered served in the normal course of the post. Perhaps you had better get mum to forward stuff on to you more regularly.
As the car is registered to you the court is likely and reasonably going to assume you were the driver; the police may well use the insurance details to support this too.
Some CPS prosecutors have been accepting a late admission at court that the keeper is the driver and dropping the fail to ID charge but they don't need to do that as it is clear you are guitly of failing to nominate the driver. You could of course plead not guilty and tell them your cock-and-bull story about mum not forwarding your mail.
If you contact a solicitor they will probably tell you to admit driving and ask that charge be dropped then you will be fined and receive 3 points not 6 + 3 = 9. It's up to you whether you need a solicitor to do that but as an officer I would expect you to be able to present that and the circumstances to a court; you don't need someone to do it for you.
It won't be long before you are expected to lead men and women into a fight and they don't want to be led by someone who can't present to a bench of 3 magistrates and expects his mum to sort out his mail for him. I should put "FFS" at the end of that but don't want to be too hard on you. Enjoy your career in the forces, I enjoyed mine and 3, 6 or 9 points isn't going to hinder you at all. Oh...and let your mum off the mail room duties and use a BFPO address if they still have them, that way your mail does follow you.
Edited by tapereel on Tuesday 24th May 09:11
agtlaw said:
You should deal with this by post.
- Plead guilty to speeding.
- Plead not guilty to failing to nominate.
In the mitigating circumstances section, outline your situation - or write a separate cover letter. Suggest that 3 points and a £100 fine is appropriate; see Magistrates Court Sentencing Guidelines, page 189, part 3.
In the unlikely event that your case is adjourned then get professional help.
Alternatively, if you want to avoid a conviction for both offences then get professional help.
And do you think it acceptable that any individual has to pay a solicitor because the system is so flawed that they are incapable of serving a document properly?- Plead guilty to speeding.
- Plead not guilty to failing to nominate.
In the mitigating circumstances section, outline your situation - or write a separate cover letter. Suggest that 3 points and a £100 fine is appropriate; see Magistrates Court Sentencing Guidelines, page 189, part 3.
In the unlikely event that your case is adjourned then get professional help.
Alternatively, if you want to avoid a conviction for both offences then get professional help.
J
agtlaw said:
jith said:
And do you think it acceptable that any individual has to pay a solicitor because the system is so flawed that they are incapable of serving a document properly?
J
1st class post is proper service; see CrimPR, Part 4.J
agtlaw said:
jith said:
And do you think it acceptable that any individual has to pay a solicitor because the system is so flawed that they are incapable of serving a document properly?
J
1st class post is proper service; see CrimPR, Part 4.J
What's 'first class' about that?
Edited by Turquoise on Tuesday 24th May 13:25
agtlaw said:
jith said:
And do you think it acceptable that any individual has to pay a solicitor because the system is so flawed that they are incapable of serving a document properly?
J
1st class post is proper service; see CrimPR, Part 4.J
"Proper" service used to be serving a citation to court in person into the hands of the accused in Scotland by Sheriff Officer or Police Officer, or at least by Recorded Delivery. There is then absolute evidence that the document arrived, i.e. was served. The present system proves only one thing: a wee clerk in the FP office stuck an envelope in the mail; probably!
Let me remind you that we now have a privatised post office, an entity that is now motivated by profit rather than quality of public service. There is not a hope in hell that there is anything like enough integrity to rely on guaranteed service of citations using this system. It is totally unacceptable to prosecute on the assumption that service has been satisfied.
J
matthias73 said:
mph1977 said:
matthias73 said:
Thank you for that. I'd have assumed that recorded delivery would have to have been used to prove a letter found itself to my address. Surely the police can't prosecute based on their word that they sent a letter.
Why they didn't just get my contact details through my insurance company is beyond me. It would have taken 3 minutes.
Interpretation Act 1978 S7 ... read it, then MTFU and stop wriggling Why they didn't just get my contact details through my insurance company is beyond me. It would have taken 3 minutes.
Data protection act as well
Sympathy is a word in the dictionary between s
t and Syphilis ...or has the military gone so soft that ex -STABs are now harder and more resilient than current claimed to be regulars ?
mph1977 said:
got an issue sunshine ? have a tissue ...
Sympathy is a word in the dictionary between st and Syphilis ...
or has the military gone so soft that ex -STABs are now harder and more resilient than current claimed to be regulars ?
Do one you utter clown. Or shall I point them in the direction of a certain thread on ARRSE so that everyone will know what sort of 'man' you really are?Sympathy is a word in the dictionary between s
t and Syphilis ...or has the military gone so soft that ex -STABs are now harder and more resilient than current claimed to be regulars ?
mph1977 said:
matthias73 said:
mph1977 said:
matthias73 said:
Thank you for that. I'd have assumed that recorded delivery would have to have been used to prove a letter found itself to my address. Surely the police can't prosecute based on their word that they sent a letter.
Why they didn't just get my contact details through my insurance company is beyond me. It would have taken 3 minutes.
Interpretation Act 1978 S7 ... read it, then MTFU and stop wriggling Why they didn't just get my contact details through my insurance company is beyond me. It would have taken 3 minutes.
Data protection act as well
Sympathy is a word in the dictionary between s
t and Syphilis ...or has the military gone so soft that ex -STABs are now harder and more resilient than current claimed to be regulars ?
tapereel said:
Nice sentiment but the DPA won't stop the police from accessing the Insurance database. DPA has exemptions allowing police access.
I'd ignore this tool if I were you. He hasn't got the spine to wear a green skin and isn't even remotely qualified to comment beyond being the subject of an administrative process of course. He also has a wispy goatee. And he's fat.Osinjak said:
tapereel said:
Nice sentiment but the DPA won't stop the police from accessing the Insurance database. DPA has exemptions allowing police access.
I'd ignore this tool if I were you. He hasn't got the spine to wear a green skin and isn't even remotely qualified to comment beyond being the subject of an administrative process of course. He also has a wispy goatee. And he's fat.jith said:
Let me remind you that we now have a privatised post office, an entity that is now motivated by profit rather than quality of public service. There is not a hope in hell that there is anything like enough integrity to rely on guaranteed service of citations using this system. It is totally unacceptable to prosecute on the assumption that service has been satisfied.
RMG is heavily regulated and has the Universal Service Obligation which means the quality of public service is extremely important to them.IIRC Ofcom can fine the crap out of them if standards drop (so it is still part of the profit incentive).
Nevertheless, you are right.
It's not as if there were this free method for sending mail at the speed of light where you can receive an instant read-receipt.
If only someone called Tim could invent such a thing.
I had a similar incident a few months back with the same issuing authority - they seem quite quick to issue a summons, however I pleaded not guilty on both issues by post, with a view to attending a hearing.
In a nutshell, it was a for a vehicle in the fleet I manage, the operator of the vehicle had changed addresses before the incident, but did not tell us until after the incident. We furnished the police/camera team with information we thought was correct, but when the S172 arrived back "not known at this address", we were issued with the same charges as you.
In my defence statement I detailed the exact circumstances, where we fit in the supply chain, the information we had at the time, and the dates we were notified of the address change.
A couple of weeks later I get a notification that the case has been dropped. They may be quick to issue summons, but didn't seem too keen on challenging the defence. Given that the speed involved was the level of an automatic ban, I was fully expecting to be suited and booted in front of a magistrate explaining the circumstances.
That said, I'd still seek professional advice for your exact circumstances. A colleague has also used Patterson Law for a personal issue and just about saved their career/licence/bacon with their help.
In a nutshell, it was a for a vehicle in the fleet I manage, the operator of the vehicle had changed addresses before the incident, but did not tell us until after the incident. We furnished the police/camera team with information we thought was correct, but when the S172 arrived back "not known at this address", we were issued with the same charges as you.
In my defence statement I detailed the exact circumstances, where we fit in the supply chain, the information we had at the time, and the dates we were notified of the address change.
A couple of weeks later I get a notification that the case has been dropped. They may be quick to issue summons, but didn't seem too keen on challenging the defence. Given that the speed involved was the level of an automatic ban, I was fully expecting to be suited and booted in front of a magistrate explaining the circumstances.
That said, I'd still seek professional advice for your exact circumstances. A colleague has also used Patterson Law for a personal issue and just about saved their career/licence/bacon with their help.
mph1977 said:
matthias73 said:
mph1977 said:
matthias73 said:
Thank you for that. I'd have assumed that recorded delivery would have to have been used to prove a letter found itself to my address. Surely the police can't prosecute based on their word that they sent a letter.
Why they didn't just get my contact details through my insurance company is beyond me. It would have taken 3 minutes.
Interpretation Act 1978 S7 ... read it, then MTFU and stop wriggling Why they didn't just get my contact details through my insurance company is beyond me. It would have taken 3 minutes.
Data protection act as well
Sympathy is a word in the dictionary between s
t and Syphilis ...or has the military gone so soft that ex -STABs are now harder and more resilient than current claimed to be regulars ?
Edited by Turquoise on Tuesday 24th May 16:11
berlintaxi said:
Osinjak said:
tapereel said:
Nice sentiment but the DPA won't stop the police from accessing the Insurance database. DPA has exemptions allowing police access.
I'd ignore this tool if I were you. He hasn't got the spine to wear a green skin and isn't even remotely qualified to comment beyond being the subject of an administrative process of course. He also has a wispy goatee. And he's fat.
jith said:
agtlaw said:
jith said:
And do you think it acceptable that any individual has to pay a solicitor because the system is so flawed that they are incapable of serving a document properly?
J
1st class post is proper service; see CrimPR, Part 4.J
"Proper" service used to be serving a citation to court in person into the hands of the accused in Scotland by Sheriff Officer or Police Officer, or at least by Recorded Delivery. There is then absolute evidence that the document arrived, i.e. was served. The present system proves only one thing: a wee clerk in the FP office stuck an envelope in the mail; probably!
In e-commerce, proof of delivery is the be all and end all.
In various parking and road traffic matters, documents are deemed to be served after 3 days.
In debt chasing and litigation, documents have to be physically handed to people.
Proof of postage or delivery never seems to factor in any of the issues around speeding tickets I've dealt with, but is more focused on the service address the documents were sent to.
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