How best to word a PCN challenge

How best to word a PCN challenge

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Otispunkmeyer

Original Poster:

12,557 posts

154 months

Monday 30th May 2016
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Brief summary of what happened.

In London this weekend. Stayed in an Air B&B just outside the olympic park. Owner gave us a visitors parking permit. Said we could park anywhere in the area. Found a space here on Carpenters Road:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5378466,-0.00626...

We arrived 22:30, in a rush, in a bit of faff after spending an hour trying to actually find the AirBnB and spending 4 hours travelling. OH filled in the permit in the apartment. Couldn't remember the number plate so left that and intended to fill it in at the car. And yeah in the rush to get all the bags sorted and get to bed before competing the next day (6:30 warmup!!) she forgot to put the number plate in the box on the permit and left it in the window.

Roll on about 8:00 next morning. Car is ticketed and towed. Reason: Invalid permit. £40 PCN, £200 to get the car out the impound.

Not sure which part was invalid they don't say on the PCN. To us it looks like we are in the right permit area and the permit says its valid for 24 hrs from the time stated. So I can only surmise it was ticketed and towed on not filling in the number plate box.

Suffice to say we panicked a lot when we came back to the car to find it gone, with no clue as to where. I am sure the police want their hour back dealing with us over a stolen car when actually the council had had it towed!!!

I am quite happy to pay the £40 PCN for a technicality (quite why the number plate needs to be on the temporary permit eludes me, it doesn't seem necessary given it is a temporary permit and even if you transferred to another vehicle, well its still going to expire and you can only use it in one vehicle!) but feel the £200 to tow it a bit over the top and find the fact they did tow it to be way over the top. It wasn't like it was dumped at the side of the road. It was in a proper space with a permit!

I feel aggrieved really. It feels really unjust to have had this happen over a box filling error (genuine error) and it really rather ruined our weekend competing.

I know I am going to get a load of smart asses now telling me to suck it up and that we should have filled the box in. But that is not useful. Thats all in the past now.

Now I am writing on the representations sheet in an effort to challenge the charge. I would be grateful if anyone here has some advice on how best to word my challenge.

Thanks.


Otispunkmeyer

Original Poster:

12,557 posts

154 months

Monday 30th May 2016
quotequote all
Additional details

car parked at 22:30. PCN at 8:30 next day and towed shortly after. We had no idea and assumed it to have been stolen. Wasted about an hour of police time doing so. Apparently this happens a lot.

It just feels like it was done really quickly, it seems suspiciously quick. Additionaly they've knocked the tracking out on the car (wheel is now 10-15 degrees to the left when driving straight) and I had to pick shards of glass out of the front tyres because they'd plonked it down in what seemed like a car park made entirely from smashed glass!

I mean what grounds have I got? They've tweaked my car and it seems like its PCN'd and towed really quickly and as we aren't from the area we didn't have a clue about any of it so to be charged £240 and put through the hassle of retrieving it over gettin 99% of the process right and 1% of it wrong just feels utterly galling. Car damage and appealing for sympathy seem like my only option?

carreauchompeur

17,830 posts

203 months

Monday 30th May 2016
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Wow, didn't realise the councils towed for non-obstructive offences. What a ridiculous state of affairs! As a first play I'd see what their towing policy actually is, suspect that the actual 'infringement' you might not have a chance against.

Otispunkmeyer

Original Poster:

12,557 posts

154 months

Monday 30th May 2016
quotequote all
Yeah it was parked where the white van is in the street view picture. All we can think of is that the number plate wasn't written in the box. Which was an honest mistake. OH filled it out in the apartment with the intention to complete it at the car. But just forgot! As I say 99% right, 1% wrong and an overly heavy price to pay for it. Feels so unjustified.

Should I actually ring the council up to speak to someone about this or will they just tell me computer says no, fill in the form?

roofer

5,136 posts

210 months

Monday 30th May 2016
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We do a lot of work around there, we use Contractor Permits. If they are not filled in exactly right, the little fat fella whacks the ticket on, then gets straight on the radio to the truck. Scam of the Century.

He did make the mistake of parking his scooter in our site compound once, six hours before we let him have it back biggrin

Had half the parking co bosses down , we eventually let him on site to retrieve once he had done the full blown site induction.

You're on a hiding to nothing i'm afraid.

Slimbull

863 posts

181 months

Monday 30th May 2016
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Personally, I'd waste no time trying to challenge this hideousy

It's clearly down to the registration box not being filled in.

I wish you good luck with your challenge, but I think you'll get more frustrated, and pissed off than you already are.

Edited by Slimbull on Monday 30th May 17:35

Otispunkmeyer

Original Poster:

12,557 posts

154 months

Monday 30th May 2016
quotequote all
If the council workers are anything like those who manned the impound (who never once answered the phone in the 30 attempts I made to get hold of them to confirm....and I rang the phone whilst in the queue there. They just let it ring!) then I fully expect computer says no all the way to the bank (theirs).

Totally inept, slow, jobsworthy and intent on destroying a small forest in paper work for every car they release. Doesn't fill me with hope.

Otispunkmeyer

Original Poster:

12,557 posts

154 months

Monday 30th May 2016
quotequote all
roofer said:
We do a lot of work around there, we use Contractor Permits. If they are not filled in exactly right, the little fat fella whacks the ticket on, then gets straight on the radio to the truck. Scam of the Century.

He did make the mistake of parking his scooter in our site compound once, six hours before we let him have it back biggrin

Had half the parking co bosses down , we eventually let him on site to retrieve once he had done the full blown site induction.

You're on a hiding to nothing i'm afraid.
Well that makes me feel a little better. I suspect this kind of thing is the only recompense I'll be getting. Just make sure to do it again for me hahaha!

Its so unjustified though, its really gotten to me. You do wonder why you bother being a normal law abiding citizen some times. I know people who've done proper crime, with proper victims get away with less than this. Though of course those types generally don't have money to pay them with. We do.

Apparently the police get a lot of calls from people who ring to report their car stolen when really the council have come, slapped and PCN on it and then towed it away 5 minutes later. I just cannot see how that sort of behaviour is allowed to slide. Its wasting police time.

Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Monday 30th May 17:29

vonhosen

40,202 posts

216 months

Monday 30th May 2016
quotequote all
How have they wasted the Police's time?

Otispunkmeyer

Original Poster:

12,557 posts

154 months

Monday 30th May 2016
quotequote all
vonhosen said:
How have they wasted the Police's time?
I spent a while on the phone trying to report the car stolen. The police found it in the impound. Apparently according to what I have heard this is quite a common occurance. I don't know about you but lots of people ringing the police because their car has disappeared without a trace because the council saw fit to just remove it seems like it might be a waste of police time? Does to me anyway. That is my opinion.

Put yourself in my position, I don't live in London and I am not from the area. How was I to know what had happened? All I knew is the car was gone. It was parked in a proper spot with the right permit for the zone so I didn't think it would be towed. So naturally I assumed it had been nicked. Its keyless entry, I know there are methods for taking a car without causing damage or breaking glass.

I suppose now this is the point where we're going to be heading for a pedantic argument in the traditional PH manner. I won't be joining in.

Tony1963

4,699 posts

161 months

Monday 30th May 2016
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Yet another reason for me to never visit London again. London's bosses have made it clear they don't want me to visit, so I won't. I get stressed just thinking about the place.

carreauchompeur

17,830 posts

203 months

Monday 30th May 2016
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Civilian parking enforcement has become about profit. Nothing else, it's a massive cash cow for councils but towing a car in these circumstances is simply wrong.

roofer

5,136 posts

210 months

Monday 30th May 2016
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Tony1963 said:
Yet another reason for me to never visit London again. London's bosses have made it clear they don't want me to visit, so I won't. I get stressed just thinking about the place.
Indeed they don't. We're often quizzed as to why we have congestion and parking charges in our prelims, and every borough is at it, although the more left leaning boroughs are the ones that have a fleet of snatch wagons strategically placed, so as soon as moped man has wacked the ticket on, they'll be there in 10 minutes.

I do feel for out of towners, probably down for a weekend treat or similar and don't realise the magpies are just waiting for them to land.

vonhosen

40,202 posts

216 months

Monday 30th May 2016
quotequote all
Otispunkmeyer said:
vonhosen said:
How have they wasted the Police's time?
I spent a while on the phone trying to report the car stolen. The police found it in the impound. Apparently according to what I have heard this is quite a common occurance. I don't know about you but lots of people ringing the police because their car has disappeared without a trace because the council saw fit to just remove it seems like it might be a waste of police time? Does to me anyway. That is my opinion.

Put yourself in my position, I don't live in London and I am not from the area. How was I to know what had happened? All I knew is the car was gone. It was parked in a proper spot with the right permit for the zone so I didn't think it would be towed. So naturally I assumed it had been nicked. Its keyless entry, I know there are methods for taking a car without causing damage or breaking glass.

I suppose now this is the point where we're going to be heading for a pedantic argument in the traditional PH manner. I won't be joining in.
You parked it in contravention of the rules, therefore the first thing to check was whether it had been removed before 'you' went to the Police.
They didn't waste Police time, it's the usual blame somebody else for failings that lay closer to home.
Putting myself in your position, when I park in cities away from home with a similar scheme I fill in the permit correctly & display it. If I didn't do it properly then I'd be the one responsible for it.

nikaiyo2

4,672 posts

194 months

Monday 30th May 2016
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Go to pepipoo and see what advice they can give, I have had every council PCN quashed on appeal, they almost ALWAYS screw something up.

You have technically cocked up, they almost always cock some technicality up.w

Otispunkmeyer

Original Poster:

12,557 posts

154 months

Monday 30th May 2016
quotequote all
nikaiyo2 said:
Go to pepipoo and see what advice they can give, I have had every council PCN quashed on appeal, they almost ALWAYS screw something up.

You have technically cocked up, they almost always cock some technicality up.w
Yes just discovered Pepipoo, I'll have a gander thanks.

stemll

4,065 posts

199 months

Monday 30th May 2016
quotequote all
vonhosen said:
You parked it in contravention of the rules, therefore the first thing to check was whether it had been removed before 'you' went to the Police.
They didn't waste Police time, it's the usual blame somebody else for failings that lay closer to home.
Putting myself in your position, when I park in cities away from home with a similar scheme I fill in the permit correctly & display it. If I didn't do it properly then I'd be the one responsible for it.
So, when you are sure you filled it in correctly and next morning it's missing do you think, well I know I filled it in but I'll try ringing the council (who, as the OP has already said, do not answer the phone and it presumes that you can find the council number) or do you report it stolen? I'm with the OP here as he believed the permit was filled in correctly so why would he think it had been towed?

Otispunkmeyer

Original Poster:

12,557 posts

154 months

Monday 30th May 2016
quotequote all
My OH filled the permit in. I presumed she did it right. I didn't realise she'd planned to fill the reg in at the car because she didn't remember it. But in the rush and the tiredness it just slipped her mind by the time she got back down. As I say honest mistake. A mistake, but hardly one worth £240. As said we did think we were all sorted and above board.

Anyway it's in the past now. All I can do is at least try to contest it and see where I get. Probably no where but at least I will try. Already budgeting to write the money off though.

loafer123

15,404 posts

214 months

Monday 30th May 2016
quotequote all

You'll get nowhere with the appeal.

You had a permit and you didn't fill it in properly, so they towed you.

It really is as simple as that.

Red Devil

13,055 posts

207 months

Monday 30th May 2016
quotequote all
Otispunkmeyer said:
Put yourself in my position, I don't live in London and I am not from the area. How was I to know what had happened?
Out-of-towners are highly unlikely to know about this (indeed many living in Greater London don't either) - http://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/services/parking-...

Otispunkmeyer said:
All I knew is the car was gone. It was parked in a proper spot with the right permit for the zone so I didn't think it would be towed. So naturally I assumed it had been nicked.
You might want to read LB Newham's policy on removals - https://www.newham.gov.uk/Documents/Transport%20an... - see paragraph 4.37.1 and Appendix D. It would seem to be applying it with utter ruthlessness just because it can.

carreauchompeur said:
Civilian parking enforcement has become about profit. Nothing else, it's a massive cash cow for councils but towing a car in these circumstances is simply wrong.
Unfortunately going half an hour into the restricted period set the OP up for targeting. That said, removal for forgetting to write down a VRM is well OTT. It's not as if he had no permit and was thumbing his nose at the system. Some local authorities and those they sub-contract are stuffed full of Carole Beer clones with no sense of proportion.

nikaiyo2 said:
Go to pepipoo and see what advice they can give, I have had every council PCN quashed on appeal, they almost ALWAYS screw something up.

You have technically cocked up, they almost always cock some technicality up.w
And MSE. Those are the places where he will get help and advice rather than homilies. It will cost him nothing to register. A £40 lesson for making a mistake is one thing, but it's the £200 and the ensuing distress and hassle that he is finding hard to stomach. It's wholly disproportionate to the contravention. No wonder that so many people sense a gulf between the organs of the state and its citizens.