Police detain 11 year of girl with a neurological disability
Discussion
davidball said:
Having spent some time studying and working with such patients as part of my psychology degree I can state with certainty that using such force on them is counter productive.
As for your ACAB slur. It is of no consequence. I firmly believe you can only be offended by the opinions of people you respect.
David, are you a practicing psychologist?As for your ACAB slur. It is of no consequence. I firmly believe you can only be offended by the opinions of people you respect.
As I said on the thread in NP&E if you put aside the moral outrage is there a significant difference between a couple of Police Officers holding her vs. using cuffs and other restraints?
Seems the Police are expected to take on the role of the social services and mental health workers.
Where were they and the parents whilst this was happening?
Seems the Police are expected to take on the role of the social services and mental health workers.
Where were they and the parents whilst this was happening?
singlecoil said:
Well, I'm not surprised you would see it that way.
I am proud to speak up on behalf on the police whenever I see them being unfairly treated by know-it-all police hating types like you.
Your infantile insults are also of no consequence. As I told Elroy Blue. I firmly believe you can only be offended by the opinions of people you respect.I am proud to speak up on behalf on the police whenever I see them being unfairly treated by know-it-all police hating types like you.
Elroy Blue said:
She was in the cells because her parents and every other 'specialist' washed their hands of her and expected the Police to magically solve the situation.
Hello Elroy Blue; sorry for snipping your post but I think this bit sums up the problem. It seems to me that the Police are now expected to be experts in handling mental illness, drunks and drug users, events crowds, citizens that make false accusations of rape, citizens who have genuinely been sexually assualted or raped, terrorists........you get the picture. All with reduced resources.And, when they struggle with this impossible range of scenarios, posters such as Mr DavidBall can't help but post snide comments, demanding all sorts to reach some perceived standard of near perfection.
Well, if it helps, I believe the Police are doing the best they can. There are far more who think like I do, compared to the DavidBalls of this world. Chin up mate.
BF.
davidball said:
singlecoil said:
Well, I'm not surprised you would see it that way.
I am proud to speak up on behalf on the police whenever I see them being unfairly treated by know-it-all police hating types like you.
Your infantile insults are also of no consequence. As I told Elroy Blue. I firmly believe you can only be offended by the opinions of people you respect.I am proud to speak up on behalf on the police whenever I see them being unfairly treated by know-it-all police hating types like you.
davidball said:
Having spent some time studying and working with such patients as part of my psychology degree I can state with certainty that using such force on them is counter productive.
You've said how you think it shouldn't have been done. The question you were asked is how you think it should have been handled. Why not tell us all how you would deal with it? Cat
Edited by Cat on Wednesday 8th June 18:45
Greendubber said:
Hillsborough? Oh do f
k off.
Maybe the officers should have stood and got bitten, punched and spat at?
Indeed.k off. Maybe the officers should have stood and got bitten, punched and spat at?
davidball, you're right that the police aren't trained to deal with mental health patients. They're trained to deal with violent people, with a sprinkling of 'mental health awareness'. Once they've got past the initial verbal reasoning stages, all they can do is deal with the violence with the tools they are given. What else can they do?
This isn't the police's problem, they're lumbered with people's medical issues and they're not medical professionals.
davidball said:
Obviously your run of the mill police officer is neither trained nor able to deal with a child like this and proper medical and psychological professionals should have been informed immediately.
And their response would have been something like 'we'll be with you in the next 24 hours'. Meanwhile.....Edited by jan8p on Wednesday 8th June 18:47
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: As I said on the thread in NP&E if you put aside the moral outrage is there a significant difference between a couple of Police Officers holding her vs. using cuffs and other restraints?
Seems the Police are expected to take on the role of the social services and mental health workers.
Where were they and the parents whilst this was happening?
I agree with you. The reasons why the police have to deal with these situations goes back to the "Care in the Community" debacle and the closure of many hospitals staffed by professionals trained to deal with people suffering psychological trauma. The police are victims of government policy and should get their super-rich federation to throw some money lobbying to get the hospital closures reversed or employ their own on-call practicing psychologists and psychiatrists like they do doctors.Seems the Police are expected to take on the role of the social services and mental health workers.
Where were they and the parents whilst this was happening?
David - clearly you have a low opinion of the police for whatever reason but let me try to shed some light on this sort of thing for you. I'm going to assume you're a psychologist (since you have yet to answer my question to that effect at the time of writing this post).
Imagine you're dealing with a patient who suddenly turns violent. Let's say it's an 11 year old girl. She starts attacking you, kicking, biting, punching, spitting. Genuine questions - what would you do? How would you deal with that?
Moreover, since you deem handcuffs, limb restraints and a spit hood as instruments of torture, those options are not open to you. Now what? She's still coming at you, intent on causing you harm, perhaps causing other people in your practice harm. Other patients, other psychologists, the receptionist perhaps.
She won't stop. It doesn't matter what you say to her, she's not calming down.
What are you going to do?
Now she starts harming herself. She's gouging her arms, biting her fingers to the bone, smacking her head off the wall.
What are you going to do?
There are no mental health teams available to come and section her because you've told them she's violent and they won't accept her.
You can't get hold of mum or dad.
What are you going to do?
Do you restrain her? How do you do that? How long can you keep that up? Can you stop her wriggling out of your grip?
I'm a serving officer and until recently I was on front line response for twelve years. I worked in an incredibly busy town in terms of the demands on police services and this includes a relatively high percentage of people with mental health patients. I don't know the figures but I've been told it's far above the national average.
I have dealt with many, many people with violent tendencies whether it's because they're mentally unwell or just because they're thugs. Matters not to a degree. The point is there is a duty of care to stop people hurting themselves or others.
Sometimes, people with mental health issues flip at the drop of a hat and let me tell you sometimes they are astonishingly strong. Even diminutive women can be just as hard to deal with as a six foot man.
It's not easy, it's not exact science and sometimes we have to do unpleasant things, things which appear distasteful to people who have no clue what it's really like.
There isn't an officer here who believes a police cell is the right place for an 11 year old child, but that's the situation in which we find ourselves time and again.
Mental health teams are struggling and won't take anyone violent. Hospital wards are strapped for staff and beds and they're not equipped to deal with it either.
Neither are the police but we're the ones everybody turns to and we're the ones who get a kicking every time from people who don't know what they're talking about.
If you'd like to tell me how you would deal with the scenario outlined above, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
Imagine you're dealing with a patient who suddenly turns violent. Let's say it's an 11 year old girl. She starts attacking you, kicking, biting, punching, spitting. Genuine questions - what would you do? How would you deal with that?
Moreover, since you deem handcuffs, limb restraints and a spit hood as instruments of torture, those options are not open to you. Now what? She's still coming at you, intent on causing you harm, perhaps causing other people in your practice harm. Other patients, other psychologists, the receptionist perhaps.
She won't stop. It doesn't matter what you say to her, she's not calming down.
What are you going to do?
Now she starts harming herself. She's gouging her arms, biting her fingers to the bone, smacking her head off the wall.
What are you going to do?
There are no mental health teams available to come and section her because you've told them she's violent and they won't accept her.
You can't get hold of mum or dad.
What are you going to do?
Do you restrain her? How do you do that? How long can you keep that up? Can you stop her wriggling out of your grip?
I'm a serving officer and until recently I was on front line response for twelve years. I worked in an incredibly busy town in terms of the demands on police services and this includes a relatively high percentage of people with mental health patients. I don't know the figures but I've been told it's far above the national average.
I have dealt with many, many people with violent tendencies whether it's because they're mentally unwell or just because they're thugs. Matters not to a degree. The point is there is a duty of care to stop people hurting themselves or others.
Sometimes, people with mental health issues flip at the drop of a hat and let me tell you sometimes they are astonishingly strong. Even diminutive women can be just as hard to deal with as a six foot man.
It's not easy, it's not exact science and sometimes we have to do unpleasant things, things which appear distasteful to people who have no clue what it's really like.
There isn't an officer here who believes a police cell is the right place for an 11 year old child, but that's the situation in which we find ourselves time and again.
Mental health teams are struggling and won't take anyone violent. Hospital wards are strapped for staff and beds and they're not equipped to deal with it either.
Neither are the police but we're the ones everybody turns to and we're the ones who get a kicking every time from people who don't know what they're talking about.
If you'd like to tell me how you would deal with the scenario outlined above, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
davidball said:
jamesson,
Thank you for your informative post. Before I embark on a detailed response can you answer a question. Do police forces have on-call psychologists or psychiatrists who are contracted to respond to requests for assistance or do you have to rely on social services?
In my force, social services. There is an on call medical doctor who attends the custody centres, but that's it.Thank you for your informative post. Before I embark on a detailed response can you answer a question. Do police forces have on-call psychologists or psychiatrists who are contracted to respond to requests for assistance or do you have to rely on social services?
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